Mr. KELLEY. What is your balance as of the last available date? Mr. KENNARD. I will have to insert that in the record.

NOTE.-Balance, $10,640.09.

Mr. SISSON. May I ask how you arrive at the amount of money you pay the Department of the Interior for heat and light?

Mr. KENNARD. Well, they furnish the heat by condensation meter. Mr. SISSON. Of course, the light is an easy proposition, because you get that by meter, too, I presume?

Mr. KENNARD. The current we get by meter; yes, sir. We get the heat by a peculiar water meter; the water, as it is condensed, turns a little wheel with buckets on it, and as the water fills the buckets and turns the wheel the amount is registered on a dial. We pay so much per unit of condensed water; they make out the price and we pay it.

Mr. SISSON. Do you know anything about the rule they have adopted in fixing your share of the expense?

Mr. KENNARD. There has been considerable discussion about it, and they finally agreed this year to first determine the actual cost of all the service and then pro rate it, I presume, according to the amount of water we return and according to the amount of water they return.

Mr. SISSON. I know there has been a great deal of controversy on the part of the different departments about this.

Mr. KENNARD. The department wrote a letter in which the contention was made that the only fair and just way for one department of the Government to render service to another was to render it upon a cost basis, and that they should first ascertain what the total cost was and then charge us with our pro rata portion of that cost, and arrangement was made accordingly.

The CHAIRMAN. It is fair to assume that they are not getting cost, but that they are losing money on the total operation.

The CHAIRMAN. "To enable the Attorney General to compensate expert witnesses and pay necessary expenses incident to the duties imposed upon him by section 7 of the act of March 4, 1921 (41 Stat. L., p. 1441), entitled 'An act to repeal and annul certain parts of the charter and lease granted and made to the Washington Market Co., by the act entitled 'An act to incorporate the Washington Market Co..' approved May 28, 1870, $3,500, to be available for use in the District of Columbia."

Mr. CALDWELL. The act approved March 4, 1921, public No. 399, provides for the repeal and annulment of certain parts of the charter granted to the Washington Market Co. by an act of 1870. Section 6 of the act of March 4, 1921, provides an appropriation of money sufficient to pay the award for the buildings, improvements, and

also to compensate the members of the commission provided for by the act.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, when the award is made?

Mr. CALDWELL. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know when it is going to be made?

Mr. CALDWELL. It is bound to be made within six months from the date of the appointment of the commission, under the terms of the act.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any one in the executive branch of the Government who has the power to refuse to accept the award?

Mr. CALDWELL. No, sir; but the award must be made within six months from the date of the appointment of the commission.

Mr. SISSON. Do you mean there is no power to reject that award? Mr. CALDWELL. No power so far as this act is concerned.

Mr. SISSON. And we are bound by the award of these commissioners?

Mr. CALDWELL. An appeal lies from the award of the commission to the Court of Appeals of the District, and that award is final, according to the terms of this act.

The CHAIRMAN. The Attorney General under section 7 of the act is required to do this:

It shall be the duty of the Attorney General to assign one or more of the attorneys in the Department of Justice to represent the interests of the United States before said commission and before the Court of Appeals, if an appeal should be prosecuted thereto and, generally, to represent the United States in all steps and proceedings looking to the enforcement of this act?

I suppose what you want is to get compensation?

Mr. CALDWELL. No; section 6 provides for an appropriation to compensate the members of the commission and a secretary and a stenographer thereto, and there is a proviso which says that the total compensation paid to the members of the commission and the secretary thereof, including the stenographer and necessary expenses, shall not exceed $35,000. Informal conferences with the comptroller have resulted in the conclusion that we can not use that for the employment of necessary expert witnesses, such as building constructors.

Mr. ANTHONY. Do not the words "necessary expenses" include the expenses of expert witnesses?

Mr. CALDWELL. In the informal opinion of the comptroller's office, that means the expenses of the commission and not the expenses of the Department of Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Would it not be possible for us to put a proviso on this bill making the $35,000 available for the payment of expert witnesses in addition to the payment of their other activities?

Mr. CALDWELL. That will be entirely satisfactory to me and to the rest of the department who are interested in this bill.

The CHAIRMAN. That would cover the case and bring you within the ruling of the comptroller general.

Mr. CALDWELL. That would be satisfactory to us. Of course, this appropriation is made disbursable by the President and we have not felt we could take any action independently of him. If that be done as of a later date than now, will that in any way operate to make it impossible to pay experts I have already engaged?

The CHAIRMAN. I do not think so. Out of the $35,000 anything can be paid that comes within the scope of the act.

Mr. CALDWELL. If there is any likelihood of that happening, I would like to have that safeguarded.

Mr. SISSON. We can put in this proviso the language you have in this section.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell us just what these expenses cover?

Mr. CALDWELL. I have only been figuring tentatively on that, but in making up the estimates I calculated on two building experts at $50 a day for 10 days each, but it seems now it will be necessary to have at least three and to have them for at least 15 days each, and it may go beyond that.

The CHAIRMAN. But the cost will not exceed $3,500?

Mr. CALDWELL. The whole thing will not exceed $3,500, I believe. It is also necessary to have an expert on refrigeration.

The CHAIRMAN. In order that you may be able to tell whether the values fixed by the commission are correct or not?

Mr. CALDWELL. Yes; in order, rather, to give the commission aid in arriving at the proper value.

The CHAIRMAN. It is fair, I suppose, to say that the commission is not considering the Government's side alone, but are considering both sides, and you on the Government side of the question want to know the proper value?

Mr. CALDWELL. Yes. We also may have to have experts as to plumbing, and so forth.

The CHAIRMAN. You want to be able to employ whatever experts you may need. You do not need to enumerate them.

Mr. CALDWELL. I was only telling you for the information of the committee that there are involved the electric, plumbing, and heating plants, and they will all have to be taken into account separately. The CHAIRMAN. Are any attorneys to be paid out of this fund? Mr. CALDWELL. No, sir; there can not be under the provision of the act which you read, section 7.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any expense in addition to the expert so that the language might be made all sufficient?

Mr. CALDWELL. I think the language we submitted is sufficient. The only ones that I can think of are the expenses for some plats and

maps.

The CHAIRMAN. "To enable the Attorney General to compensate expert witnesses and pay necessary expenses incident to the duties imposed upon him by section 7 of the act of March 4, 1921"-you think that language is broad enough?

Mr. CALDWELL. I think so.

Mr. KELLEY. The trouble is that the comptroller has held that these moneys must be expended only under the commission and anything that the Attorney General expends is not covered by this act?

Mr. CALDWELL. Expended entirely at the discretion of the President. The funds are disbursable by the President, but only for the expenses of the commission. The comptroller has not held that formally, but that is what he will hold.

The CHAIRMAN. But he will compel us, by his anticipated decision, to pay $3,500 more than we otherwise would have to pay?

Mr. CALDWELL. Of course, that assumes that the President will use the entire $35,000 for the purposes specified, which is not entirely proper to assume.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any funds available for the payment of these expert witnesses?

Mr. CALDWELL. We have not. The usual fund for court expenses, the appropriation for miscellaneous expenses of United States courts, is not available for this purpose, as the proceeding is before a commission in the District of Columbia; nor is the appropriation for miscellaneous expenses, Supreme Court of the District available, because this proceeding does not lie in that court. It lies with this commission and from the commission there is an appeal to the Court of Appeals of the District of Columbia.

The CHAIRMAN. So it would have to be specially treated?
Mr. CALDWELL. Yes, sir.

MONDAY, NOVEMBER 14, 1921.

DEPARTMENT OF LABOR.

BUREAU OF IMMIGRATION.

STATEMENTS OF MR. W. W. HUSBAND, COMMISSIONER GENERAL OF IMMIGRATION, AND MR. W. H. WAGNER, SPECIAL IMMIGRANT INSPECTOR.

ELLIS ISLAND, N. Y.-FOR RECONSTRUCTION, ETC., OF LAUNDRY BUILDING, ISLAND

NO. 2.

The CHAIRMAN. We have before us an item for Ellis Island, N. Y., for reconstruction and reconditioning of laundry building, Island No. 2, $63,470.05. Tell us why we are called upon to consider this proposition.

Mr. HUSBAND. The laundry on Island No. 2 is one of three laundries on what is known as Ellis Island. It is connected with the hospital and was old, and the equipment was quite out of date. On May 16 of this year it was practically destroyed by fire and the equipment also practically destroyed. I believe a little of the machinery is available, but for the most part it is gone. We used approximately $1,000 in protecting the building and made a careful survey of the situation, with a view to rebuilding and so equipping it that the number of active laundries on the island could be reduced to two instead of three, and this item of $63,000 represents the restoration of the building and the purchase and installation of new laundry machinery and equipment.

The CHAIRMAN. How was this figure arrived at?

Mr. HUSBAND. It was arrived at by the engineer in charge of the island. I have here a very detailed statement of the cost of the various items.

The CHAIRMAN. I wish you would be kind enough to read that.

DETAILS OF ESTIMATE.

Mr. HUSBAND. The detailed estimate of cost is as follows:

Item No. 1.-For restoration and repair of first or ground floor, including removal of emergency heating boiler not now required because of improvements and enlargements in the main power plant, the removal of the chimney used by said boiler, alterations in certain bearing walls, including cutting of large opening and installation of lintels so as to retain the supporting strength of said walls, removal of the old di-inferting apparatus at the west end of said laundry building, the e alterations leaving available three rooms, respectively 33 by 25 feet, 33 by 17 feet, 33 by 13 feet, all intercommunicating and available for laundry mechanism, $9,500. This include: all electric light wiring, lighting fixtures, and needful repairs to heating apparatus and water supply on said first floor.

The CHAIRMAN. Were all these changes made necessary by the fire?

Mr. HUSBAND. As I remember going over it, not absolutely necessary, but in making the general improvements after the fire they are

necessary.

The CHAIRMAN. The fact you had a fire has led you to this plan to improve or remodel the building?

Mr. HUSBAND. Yes, sir; to improve the building somewhat so as to increase the capacity.

Item No. 2.-For installation of new fireproof roof for entire building, steel frame, tile and slate covering, assuming the salvage of as much of the present slate as can be used, $6,600.

That may be explained hereafter, but I will say right here that this was not a fireproof building. It is adjacent to the psychopathic ward of the hospital and the fire which occurred was handled very well, indeed, but had it been communicated to the hospital proper it would have reached the psychopathic ward first. Several of these items are with a view to making the building practically fireproof.

The CHAIRMAN. On this part of the building the roof was affected by the fire?

Mr. HUSBAND, It was destroyed practically and a temporary roof had to be put on.

Item No. 3.-For repairing and reconditioning the present second story, including repairs to plumbing, electric lighting, and water supply, $1,200.

Item No. 4 for construction of an additional or third story to said building, includin repairs to present second story and the repairs and alterations to first story, as described in items I and 3, $37,800.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the necessity for an additional story?

Mr. HUSBAND. The necessity for that is to provide dormitory space for attendants at the island. There is at the island no nurses' home, and none of the accommodation for nurses which now ordinarily go with a modern hospital plant.

The CHAIRMAN. This is a laundry building we are talking about now. Mr. HUSBAND. This is a laundry building, a two-story building, and this upper floor was put in with the intention of making provision for the nurses.

The CHAIRMAN. For the nurses for the hospital side of it?

Mr. HUSBAND. Yes. It is all a part of the hospital. This is the hospital laundry,

This would make the cost of the construction of said story at the rate of $1 per cubic foot. This includes the roof and roof parapet to

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