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Mr. HUSBAND. Now you get into another item, although to do the work at the same time would expedite it and save money, I suspect. The difficulty with the plumbing system on Island No. 2 is that the pipes are old, and are corroded until it is absolutely impossible to get the water through some of them. I inspected that myself. There are two banks of toilets there, two toilets on the second floor and two on the third floor of the hospital, and no water gets to the third floor at all. They have to carry water up in buckets to flush the toilets. On the second floor it only runs in the bathroom so they have to fill the bathtub and dip the water out to flush the toilets. On the first floor it is somewhat better

The CHAIRMAN. That is the condition?

Mr. HUSBAND. Yes, sir. It is a very serious situation. Nothing has happened, but for a hospital it is not good.

The CHAIRMAN. How about the amount, is that a reasonable amount?

Mr. HUSBAND. The detailed estimate of the cost amounts to $20,000. Of course, we have had to take the engineer's figures for that. It is not only the bath rooms that trouble, Mr. Chairman, but we have, for instance, a coil of hose there in one place and no water will reach the hose. The fire protection is fairly good from the outside and from other sources, but it just shows the condition of the pipes in the building.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any sewer gas there?
Mr. HUSBAND. No, sir; it is not a sewage proposition.
Mr. Sisson. This is the same building?
Mr. HUSBAND. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Please give us the details of how you reached the conclusion that $20,000 was a reasonable sum?

DETAILS OF ESTIMATE,

Mr. HUSBAND. The detailed estimate of the cost is as follows: 10,000 feet of brass supply pipe, at 35 cents...

$3,500 4,000 feet of galvanized supply pipe, 2 inches to 4 inches, at 75 cents.

3,000 Brass fittings..

650 Galvanized fittings..

300 Valves and emptying cocks.

400 Cutting and patching..

1, 800 Hangers, supports, etc..

350 Labor..

4, 800 Pipe covering

2,012

Total..... Profit and overhead..

16,812 3, 188

Grand total.....

... 20,000 Note.--If we can get the material required from surplus material on hand at other departments, and at costs less than current market rates, a saving can be effected accordingly. It should be understood, however, that there is no profit in attempting to use second-hand piping, etc., in permanent construction work, and therefore no surplus material taken should be material that has been used.

The CHAIRMAN. $3,000 on $16,000; that is about 20 per cent; that is a pretty good-sized profit?

YOTE.—This 20 per cent comprises not only profit, but all overhead charges, including employers' liability insurance, supervision, etc.

Mr. HUSBAND. I talked with the engineer at Ellis Island weeks ago, and he told me that it would probably be possible to save something because of the decreased cost of certain supplies since the estimate was prepared, but he had not investigated and did not want to make any change.

SALT-WATER FLUSHING SYSTEMS FOR HOSPITAL BUILDINGS, ISLAND NO.2.

The CHAIRMAN. Please take up the next item.

Mr. HUSBAND. The next one is for salt-water flushing system for hospital building, Island No. 2, including installation, $20,000. That is the one you have there?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUSBAND. It is not so much an emergency as the others, but it seems to me-I asked the engineer as a business proposition when we were doing one thing whether we ought not to do the other, and he agreed.

The CHAIRMAN. It is not a deficiency?

Mr. HUSBAND. But money can be saved by doing the two at the same time, because they are in the same building and concern pipes running in the same direction.

The CHAIRMAN. And not have to tear up again?
Mr. HUSBAND. Yes, sir. That is why I included it.

The engineer told me that it was a very necessary thing to do.

IMMIGRATION SERVICE.

FOR ENFORCEMENT OF LAWS REGULATING IMMIGRATION OF ALIENS.

The CHAIRMAN. The next item is, " Immigration Service.” For enforcement of the laws regulating immigration of aliens into the C'nited States, and so forth, you have an estimate of $150,000 for 1921 and a request for $300,000 for 1922. How did those deficiences occur?

Mr. HUSBAND. Permit me to ask Mr. Wagner to explain that particular deficiency, because he knows-I know in a general way but I think he knows in detail more than I do about it.

The CHAIRMAN. Certainly.

Mr. Wagner. During the last fiscal year, as you know, immigration increased considerably. Commencing with July the arrivals at New York and elsewhere totaled 83,959 and gradually worked up to 103,269 in October. This great increase in immigration created many additional expenditures. Additional help was also necessary to take care of the situation. Last May we submitted to the Senate committee an estimate of $488,000 to take care of these additional obligations that were incurred and were not estimated for at the beginning of the year.

The CHAIRMAN. These two items have reference to deportation ? Mr. WAGNER. Yes, sir. Mr. HUSBAND. I will explain the third item; that is a different roposition.

TRANSPORTATION FOR DEPORTATION OF ALIENS.

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The CHAIRMAN. The $150,000 was used for transportation in connection with the deportation of aliens unlawfully in the United States ?

Mr. WAGNER. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. How was that money expended!
Mr. WAGNER. How was the money expended?
The CHAIRMAN. How many people were deported ?
Mr. WAGNER. During the fiscal year 4,517 people were deported.
The CHAIRMAN. Where transported from?

Mr. WAGNER. All over the United States, some came from the Pacific coast, some from the northwestern and northeastern sections of the country and others from the middle west and south. They are brought to New York if they are to be returned to Europe. If they go back to Canada or Mexico, of course, we transport them to the borders.

The CHAIRMAN. How does it happen that just an even $100,000 is for transportation ?

Mr. WAGNER. There is no way of allocating those expenditures at this time; it was near as we could estimate. The total of the bills obligated and unpaid is $150,000.

The CHAIRMAN. There are two items that I am talking about. The transportation, of course, you ought to be able to allocate the amount paid?

Mr. WAGNER. The transportation charges are incurred during the entire year. The transportation companies do not send in their bills monthly; they sometimes delay submission of bills for five, six, or eight months. As the bills for other items came in the money was paid out and when we totaled our expenditures we found that we still owed this additional sum.

The CHAIRMAN. Of $150,000?
Mr. WAGNER. Yes, sir; for transportation and maintenance.

SALARY INCREASE OF MARINE FORCE-ADDITIONAL EMPLOYEES.

The CHAIRMAN. And you estimate that it is all due to the deportation of these 4,500 people?

Mr. Wagner. Yes, sir. The money originally set aside was spent for other purposes. Four hundred and twenty-six people were added to the rolls shortly after July 1, and then we had other emergency expenses. For instance, we had to meet a salary award of the Chicago United States Railroad Labor Board in connection with our marine and power-house force.

The CHAIRMAN. What did they have to do with it?

Mr. WAGNER. That affected our marine force at the port of New York. These men claimed to be entitled to the same salary paid to other men operating Government-owned vessels in New York Harbor.

The CHAIRMAN. What did the United States Railroad Labor Board have to do with the marine question?

Mr. WAGNER. The board fixed the wages of railroad employees. Our men believed they were entitled to the same salary paid these men whose salaries were adjusted by the United States Labor Board. The CHAIRMAN. How much of this deficiency is due to the increased number of employees--you said that 426 employees had been put into the service?

Mr. WAGNER. Yes, sir. That is what our records show. We spent that money for other purposes.

The CHAIRMDN. Why put them on?

Mr. WAGNER. To take care of this increase in immigration that arrived at the port of New York.

The CHAIRMAN. During the war, of course, there was no immigration and, I suppose, you reduced your force at Ellis Island ?

Mr. WAGNER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. It was necessary to put on these 426 additional employees to provide for the activities of the service?

Mr. WAGNER. Yes, sir; the immigration after the war.
The CHAIRMAN. How many of the people are kept on there now?

Mr. Wagner. We are reducing our force each month. At the beginning of the fiscal year we had 2,027 employees in the force. At Ellis Island 728, and our present personnel at that station is 520; so we are making strong efforts to bring the force down.

Mr. HUSBAND. I inherited this item. The CHAIRMAN. How much of this deficiency is due to an increase of salaries?

Mr. WAGNER. I do not know that it was due to an increase of salaries, except indirectly. We had to put on 426 additional people and increased the salaries of marine and power-house employees. The total cost of this increase in salaries was $34,297.36.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you a statement of the increases ? Mr. WAGNER. I have not those figures. I have here the number of people asked for, and we figured it out upon the basis of nine and a half months.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you feel that you were bound by any law to increase the salaries?

Mr. WAGNER. Yes, sir; we felt that in regard to the marine personnel. Of course, I can not speak for the former Secretary and Commissioner General. I can not say what the Secretary had in mind, but he directed that this be done.

The CHAIRMAN. When was it done? Mr. WAGNER. That was done on September 15, 1920. That is when the increase for the marine employees went into effect.

The CHAIRMAX. Did the commissioner know then that he did not have a fund with which to meet those increased salaries?

Mr. WAGNER. The former Commissioner General realized that.

The CHAIRMAX. And he knew that he was obligating the Government for the payment of something that had not been appropriated for.

Mr. WAGNER. I believe he explained the entire situation to the Secretary of Labor. Of course, if that had been the only emergency expenditure we would have gotten along all right, but other items came up subsequently that had to be taken care of.

MAINTENANCE OF UNDESIRABLE ALIENS. Mr. Byrns. In your statement of expenditures, I notice an item of $50,000 for the maintenance of undesirable aliens unlawfully in the United States. I take it that that does not represent the total amount expended during the whole year for that purpose ?

Mr. WAGNER. No, sir.

Mr. BYRNS. I was wondering why there should be such a large amount paid for that purpose. Why are they not sending them back promptly instead of keeping them here at the cost of the Government ?

Mr. WAGNER. We are sending them back as promptly as possible. When we deport aliens, they are brought in from the west coast, we will say, to New York, and we incur maintenance expense there. The alien may be in detention at some point in the United States, and we must pay the cost of his maintenance until we can transport him across the country, and remove him to his foreign destination. Last year there were a great many aliens that could not be deported promptly.

Mr. BYRNS. Why?

Mr. WAGNER. On account of war conditions abroad and conditions in Russia. We had a great many aliens, as you probably recall from previous hearings, that were held in detention until we could get passage for them to Europe. While detaining them we have to bear the expense.

The CHAIRMAN. Are they allowed to be at large while we are paying their expenses?

Mr. WAGNER. Some of them are out on bond.

The CHAIRMAN. Do we pay their expenses when they are out on bond ?

Mr. WAGNER. No, sir; not then; but we must pay their expenses until the Secretary of Labor grants authority to release them on bond.

The CHAIRMAN. To whom is this money due? It is due to somebody, is it not?

Mr. WAGNER. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. By whom are the bills rendered?

Mr. WAGNER. The bills are rendered by steamship companies, transportation lines, private individuals, jailers, and others. They submit their bills.

The CHAIRMAN. So that this money is actually due?
Mr. WAGNER. It is actually due now.
The CHAIRMAN. Is the amount exactly $50,000 ?

Mr. WAGNER. No, sir; I can not say that that is exactly the amount, but it is very near the amount; within a few thousand dollars of it.

The CHAIRMAN. How much do the bills that you already have on hand amount to, or the bills that you know of ?

Mr. WAGNER. I went over that with the disbursing clerk last week, and we figured that $150,000 was what was still due ?

The CHAIRMAN. How much of that has been submitted in the form of bills.

Mr. WAGNER. That I can not say. We estimated the amount from our allotment records and the records of the disbursing clerk's office.

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). You do not know whether this is too much or too little ?

Mr. WAGNER. I am quite certain that it will be sufficient. We want to be on the safe side, because we do not want to come up here again and say we need more money.

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