ing to so much militarism abroad now, and the idea is that if we use the private police force it will be much more compatible with our position. That is our theory. We may be dead wrong and you may be absolutely right that the military would be the proper thing. The CHAIRMAN. You do not need even the military because these men are not going to be run away with.

Mr. BRANDENBURG. Oh, no; but the suggestion made by Mr. Wood and Mr. Kelley was that they put some of the marines there, or some of the soldiers.

Mr. SISSON. You know that the marines are not looked upon as military at all. If you land one soldier in Italy or France or England without the permission of that country to guard certain American property, that is an act of war, but you can land a whole regiment of marines and that is police duty.

Mr. BRANDENBURG. That is true.

Mr. Sisson. That is the difference that is made. The marines are distinctly, by all international law, policemen.

Mr. BRANDENBURG. That is true.

Mr. SISSON. And if there is one duty that the marines can perform, which is unobjectionable under all the laws of nations, that is to have the President of the United States detail them to guard these diplomats and ministers.

Mr. BRANDENBURG. Of course, that is a matter for you gentlemen to pass upon.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Brandenburg, do you think the presence of a marine would prejudice the minds of any of these people?

Mr. BRANDENBURG. I can not say so, Mr. Madden; honestly, I can not, but the theory was

Mr. SISSON (interposing). If that is the psychology of it, then we ought to take these belts and the uniform off of our commissioner. He ought to be stripped of that and made to wear citizen's clothes so these men might not see him in uniform.

Mr. BRANDENBURG. It will not be long before he is in citizen's clothes, because I do not think the Secretary of War is going to keep him in uniform very much longer. Of course, the uniform has only

come since the war has been on.

The CHAIRMAN. You understand that these people from abroad are bringing over a number of generals and all grades of military men with them as advisers, and I do not think they are very much afraid of that sort of thing.

Mr. BRANDENBURG. I do not think they are afraid, Mr. Maddendo not misunderstand me. We have no fear of that at all. Our idea is that this is really in the nature of a peace conference. It is a limitation of armament and is not a disarmament conference, and our idea is that the less military there is about it the better it is.

The CHAIRMAN. You have now said about all you want so say on that?

Mr. BRANDENBURG. Just one more word and then I am through, Mr. Chairman. I do not think the major was quite correct, or at least he did not follow out the idea of this committee, in stating that these policemen would be required solely for social functions. think he is not quite correct there. Our idea is that nearly all of these delegations will require police protection or require some pro

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tection, and for that reason we as citizens feel, and we have no interest except as citizens, it would be becoming that sufficient police authority be given for the protection of those people.

The CHAIRMAN. If there is no one else connected with the city government who wishes to be heard on this subject, I will make this suggestion to the committee and to you gentlemen: As I stated at the outset, we ought to decide the question right away so you will know what we are going to do, and if you will just step into the other room for about 10 minutes we will have an executive session to consider the matter.

Mr. SISSON. I want to ask one other question. What would you gentlemen do if Congress were not in session? Of course, this conference is called and has nothing to do with any session of Congress, and this happens to be a special session.

Mr. BRANDENBURG. I do not think we would be in the hole any more than we ever have been. We would simply put our shoulders to the wheel and do the best we can. We have already sworn in of

our own citizens, as assistants, about 350 men.

Mr. SISSON. Yes; I noticed that, and I do not know whether you were acting very wisely or not.

Mr. BRANDENBURG. That may be true.

Mr. SISSON. I will not discuss that, however, because that has already been done.

Mr. BRANDENBURG. I am not one of them.

Mr. SISSON. I do not know what responsibility your municipal officers are assuming in putting a lot of irresponsible people on the police force who are not under bond and not under your absolute control.

The CHAIRMAN. Policemen are not under bond.

Mr. SISSON. I know they are not, but they are under the absolute control of the commissioners, while these men are not. I do not know whether you have acted very wisely or not. I hope you have.

The CHAIRMAN. It is the unanimous opinion of the committee that this is a matter that should be entirely under the jurisdiction of the State Department; that it is an international obligation, if we have any obligation, over which the State Department has jurisdiction. The State Department itself has a secret service organization; it has access to the secret service organization of the Treasury Department, of the Navy Department, of the War Department, and of the Department of Justice, and a mere request from the Secretary of State to any or all of those departments will find ready response in any number of men that he may think proper to call for, whether they be in uniform or in civilian clothes. If he thinks it is proper that they should be in uniform, of course, he will call for marines. The marines are essentially a police organization; they have nothing of the military tinge about their makeup, except bravery in battle, and the committee thinks it would be unwise to inaugurate a policy of this sort on an occasion like this, and thereby establish a precedent for the future. Therefore, we have decided definitely and conclusively that we will not make this allowance, and we hope you will take it in good grace, because we have not just arbitrarily said that we will not do a thing, but we have simply said it because we know that we have other avenues of approach through which all the facilities required can be supplied. We thought that the importance

of the situation was such that you ought to know at once what you were going to be able to do. For that reason we did not delay, and, as one gentleman has said, since it is the duty of the Chief Justice to pass sentence, I have passed it as gracefully as I knew how.

SURVEYOR'S OFFICE-TEMPORARY DRAFTSMEN, COMPUTERS, ETC.

The CHAIRMAN. For the services of temporary draftsmen, computers, laborers, etc., in the surveyor's office, you ask for $4,000. Tell us what you know about that.

Maj. BROWN. The appropriation for several years previous to 1922 had been $8,000, and it is believed that the amount was cut down to $4,000 through a misapprehension which occurred in the Senate. The Congressional Record of January 19, 1921, page 1716, will indicate that the appropriation was cut in two through error, and it was too late for a correction to be made. It was the erroneous impression of certain members of the Senate Committee that out of this appropriation was paid the salary of an individual in the District. Building, and the amount of his salary was cut out of that appropriation. That impression was entirely erroneous, because this particular individual is not an employee of the surveyor's office.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean to say that this cut was made to stop the salary of some single individual?

Maj. BROWN. It would appear so from the page of the Congressional Record I have referred to.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a serious charge to make against the Senate.

Maj. BROWN. It is not made as a charge. I simply referred to record as explaining the reason of the cut.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the unexpended balance in this fund now?

Maj. BROWN. Of the $4,000, we had to allot the amount throughout the year. It was allotted $3,000 to the first half and $1,000 to the second half of the year, with the idea that if we were unable to obtain any additional funds, we would be obliged to cut the force of the surveyor's office during the second half of the present fiscal year. The CHAIRMAN. What is the duty of the surveyor?

Maj. BROWN. The surveyor prepares all plats ordered or called for by the District of Columbia or by private individuals. One feature of his work which has been very large during the first half of this present fiscal year consists of plats which he is called upon to provide for private parties, particularly in connection with building operations.

The CHAIRMAN. For subdivisions?

Maj. BROWN. For subdivisions and for buildings.

The CHAIRMAN. Does the Government of the United States or the District of Columbia provide plats for subdivisions made by private parties?

Maj. BROWN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you make the surveys?

Maj. BROWN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I thought that private parties themselves or through private surveyors made the surveys, and that they were only required to have them approved and recorded.

Maj. BROWN. No, sir; they are made by the surveyor's office. Of course, a private party may get a private surveyor to make a tentative subdivision plat, but the final plat must be prepared by the surveyor.

The CHAIRMAN. Prepared or approved by him?

Maj. BROWN. It must be actually prepared by him. The private surveyor may make a layout which is intended more or less as a guide for the surveyor, but the plat actually approved by the Commissioners must be made by the surveyor's office.

Mr. WOOD. Does he make any charge for that service, or is any fee paid?

Maj. BROWN. Yes, sir; that work is on the fee basis, but those fees go back into the United States Treasury, so that this appropriation does not receive anything from that source.

The CHAIRMAN. Does the surveyor's office do the field work in connection with those surveys?

Maj. BROWN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. As well as the office work?

Maj. BROWN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there a sufficient amount of building now on hand to justify an increase in this appropriation?

Maj. BROWN. Building operations have been very large, and the monthly building permits for two of the past four months have exceeded $3,000,000 in value. The work is exceedingly large, and every one of those building permits means some work on the part of the surveyor's office. The appropriation receives no return from the fees, as they go into the Treasury, and this year's appropriation is particularly hard pressed now.

Mr. WOOD. What is the amount of fees collected?

Maj. BROWN. The surveyor's office is practically self-sustaining. I can not give you the exact amount.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by saying it is self-sustaining, or upon what basis is it self-sustaining?

Maj. BROWN. From the income from the fees.

The CHAIRMAN. On the basis of $4,000 or $10,000?

Mr. DONOVAN. $30,000.

Maj. BROWN. There is one other general appropriation of $2,000, and the total appropriation for the surveyor's office amounts to about $30,000. The collections from fees during the last year were in the neighborhood of $25,000.

Mr. DONOVAN. They were $25,355.87.

Maj. BROWN. The balance between that amount and the appropriation of $30,000 represents the amount by which it was not selfsustaining, and, in addition to that, the surveyor's office does whatever public work is required. There is a great deal of that to be done in the preparation of plats in which only the District government is interested.

The CHAIRMAN. How nearly current is the work on the basis of the present appropriation? You stated that you have allotted $3,000 of the $4,000 for the first six months.

Maj. BROWN. We must keep up with the applications for building plats. That work must be kept current, because we believe that is our duty. We can not hold down on private parties, but the surveyor's office is somewhat behind on its own work, or work purely

for the District of Columbia. For example, if we wished to study the alley layout in certain squares, the surveyor's office would have to do that preparatory to ordering condemnation for additional alleys, etc., but on such an item as that we would have to hold back, because, as I have said, the surveyor's office is hard pressed.

The CHAIRMAN. How many additional computers and draftsmen would you need, or how many would you be able to employ under this appropriation?

Maj. BROWN. Out of the additional $4,000, the salaries of those men for half a year would probably not be greater than $750 apiece, and that would give us approximately six additional men for half a

year.

Mr. SISSON. Following up the question asked by Mr. Wood, will you put in the record a statement showing what you have received to date, in this fiscal year, in the shape of fees for the surveyor's office, and then give us a statement covering a year or two preceding, so that we may see about how the fees run for the surveys?

Maj. BROWN. I will do so.

Receipts and salaries, surveyor's office, District of Columbia.

July 1, 1919, to June 30, 1920:

Receipts..

Salaries..

SCHEDULE OF FEES.

Mr. SISSON. Those fees are fixed by law?

Maj. BROWN. They are fixed by the commissioners in accordance with authority of law.

Mr. SISSON. What is the principle upon which the fees are fixed? In other words, how do you determine what fee would be charged for a certain plat for a person who wanted to build an apartment house, for instance?

Maj. BROWN. The fees with regard to subdivisions ar. .sed upon the number of lots included in the subdivision, but the fees for building plats are flat fees.

The CHAIRMAN. Depending upon the cost of the building?

Maj. BROWN. No, sir; for a plat which necessitates no survey in the field, the fee is 50 cents for a single lot and 10 cents for each additional adjoining lot. When field surveys are required the fee varies according to location and number of lines to be located up to a maximum of $8, except for extensive surveys for which the charge is $25 per day of field work.

Mr. SISSON. I was wondering why, if you have a fee system, this fund should not be absolutely self-sustaining, because, so far as I am informed, in the States the surveyors are either absolutely on a fee basis, or the fees are so fixed that the State or subdivision of government concerned actually makes a little money out of it.