Maj. BROWN. I might just cite an instance that came up on yesterday, or Saturday. There came to my office from Maj. Tyler, the District engineer, a request that the surveyor place along the left bank of the Anacostia River certain hubs indicating the lines around the Anacostia Park improvement. Now, that is public work for which there is no fee and, therefore, the surveyor's office can not be made wholly self-sustaining. It can be made largely so, and it is now largely so.

Mr. SISSON. They might make a slight profit.

Mr. WOOD. Those gentlemen who are exacting such exorbitant rental prices should contribute something to this expense.

Col. KELLER. No matter what we charged for the service, the money would go back into the general fund.

Mr. WOOD. It occurs to me that this is one office that could very easily be made self-sustaining.

The CHAIRMAN. That depends upon the amount of public service rendered.

Maj. BROWN. Yes, sir; it is measured by that in a way.

The CHAIRMAN. Are not surveyors' plats needed in order to locate the lines on which buildings are erected?

Maj. BROWN. Yes, sir; and the District surveyor is under bond that these lines shall be run accurately. That makes it necessary that he have the proper number of men and capable men on the job Mr. ANTHONY. If you are called upon to locate the lines of a lot what are your fees for that service?

Maj. BROWN. The fee is from $3 to $8, depending upon location and number of lines to be located.

Mr. ANTHONY. Out in my country they charge about $10 for that service.

The CHAIRMAN. Where you have it done by a private surveyor? Mr. ANTHONY. No; by a county surveyor.

The CHAIRMAN. He is paid by fees?

Mr. ANTHONY. Yes.

MUNICIPAL LODGING HOUSE.

ERECTION OF NEW BUILDING.

The CHAIRMAN. For additional amount required for the erection of a new municipal lodging house, you are asking $33,000. We would like to have somebody tell us why this new municipal lodging house should be built at the present time, with the present rate of building costs.

Maj. BROWN. I am here to represent the engineer department more definitely with regard to the question of what it will cost to construct the building according to the plans we now have rather than to represent the real need for the institution. The administration of the institution is not under the jurisdiction of the engineer department of the District of Columbia.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to ask you, then, so that you may incorporate the answer in your story, what authority there is for the expenditure of this increased sum of money? Is there any law that authorizes an increased cost for the building? If there is not

any law authorizing it, we had as well cut it out at once. that there was no limit. Is the work in progress?

It appears

Maj. BROWN. The work has not been started. Under the old appropriation made

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). You find that it will cost $33,000 more to construct the building that was originally estimated?

Maj. BROWN. Yes, sir; we want a house that will accommodate 100 or more.

Mr. SISSON. Was there a law authorizing the original appropriation?

Maj. BROWN. There is an appropriation of $40,000, and a part of it was expended for the site.

Mr. SISSON. There was a law authorizing it?

Maj. BROWN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SISSON. My recollection is rather dim about it, but I recall there was some discussion of it.

Mr. DONOVAN. That is in the appropriation law. There was an appropriation of $40,000, with authority for the purchase of a site and erection of a municipal lodging house.

The CHAIRMAN. It might be well to inquire right here whether, in addition to this request for a deficiency appropriation, this particular item has been included in the budget of the District of Columbia for the fiscal year 1923.

Maj. BROWN. No, sir; it has not.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell us why this additional cost is necessary.

Maj. BROWN. I have the plans here. The original appropriation was made in 1917, and the site was purchased for approximately $10,000, which was taken from the appropriation of $40,000, leaving a balance of $30,000, approximately. The building as planned can not be built for such a sum. It has not been possible to build it for that sum at any time since the appropriation was made, and it can not now be done for that sum. These plans were made after consultation with the administrative officials of the institution, and they embody what in their opinion is desirable. The present building is wholly inadequate. It is an old dwelling house.

The CHAIRMAN. How many people do they provide for there now?
Maj. BROWN. They can take care of as many as 40 people.
The CHAIRMAN. Is it crowded?

Maj. BROWN. Yes, sir; I think they run about up to their limit. and the superintendent tells me that a great many men come there and go away when it might really be desirable to take care of them in the institution. This new building will provide for 100 men and will provide for them much better than the building they now have. It will provide them with the same facilities, but they will be in much better shape.

The CHAIRMAN. It will be more extensive?

Maj. BROWN. Yes, sir; more extensive.

Mr. WOOD. What class of people do they keep in this institution? Maj. BROWN. There are a certain number of men there who are sent by the Board of Charities. They are people whom they look up and find to be deserving to go into that place. Others are men who are out of employment and who come to the city. They are people who go to this sort of institution rather than to a hotel, for example, because here they are sure of cleanliness and proper meals without undue expense.

The CHAIRMAN. What are they required to do to pay for what they get?

Mr. RUDOLPH. They have to saw a certain amount of wood.

Maj. BROWN. I am not thoroughly familiar with the institution. Mr. ANTHONY. Are many of them permanent residents or inmates of the institution?

Maj. BROWN. No, sir; about three nights is the average time.

Col. KELLER. You gentlemen may recall that some time ago a Mr. Brown, a brother of Mr. W. C. Brown, president of the New York Central Railroad, made certain criticisms of this institution from the standpoint of public health, and I admit that the situation there is not entirely suitable. The plans we have are plans for a building required by the people who are in charge of this activity. They told us what kind of building they must have.

Mr. SISSON. I do not see why this is an urgent deficiency at this particular time, and why it could not be taken up regularly in December.

The CHAIRMAN. How long would it take you to erect the building in case you had the funds with which to erect it?

Maj. BROWN. About three months.

The CHAIRMAN. Could you put up a building of this sort in three months?

Maj. BROWN. Yes, sir; we could put up this building in three months.

The CHAIRMAN. What is it to be made of?

Maj. BROWN. Brick with stone trim. I think three months would be the minimum time required.

The CHAIRMAN. How would you finish it inside-would it be plastered?

Maj. BROWN. Yes, sir; it would be plastered.

The CHAIRMAN. You could not build it in three months, then, could you?

Maj. BROWN. That is the minimum time that would be required. It is not to be a complicated structure. The two upper stories would be dormitories. As I have said, three months would be the minimum time required, and it would be rather difficult to do that, because we would have winter coming on. While the plans are prepared, we would have to do some work on the specifications before we could actually put it under contract.

The CHAIRMAN. Those plans would not be wasted if they were not used immediately?

Maj. BROWN. No, sir; they will be perfectly good at any time. Col. KELLER. The unemployment situation makes it more necessary.

The CHAIRMAN. At the same time, you desire to utilize the present building?

Col. KELLER. This new building will be on a different site.

Mr. GALLIVAN. This building is required for the down-and-outers, and it will be needed next winter, I take it. If it is not incorporated in this bill, I take it it will be incorporated in some other bill. Col. KELLER. It should be provided for now.

Mr. GALLIVAN. I am for the building. It is not so much for waifs and strays as it is for the down-and-outers.

Mr. RUDOLPH. There is no item in the regular appropriation bill for this particular project. The estimates do not include it, because we thought that the urgency was such that you ought to meet it as quickly as possible. These men are coming in at night, and they have double-decker beds there, which is an unfortunate condition, and many have been turned away.

The CHAIRMAN. You could not hope to finish the building and have the use of it this winter.

Mr. RUDOLPH. We could make good headway on it if you would give us the money now. If we had the money now, we could have it in operation by April.

The CHAIRMAN. Then, of course, the need for it would be over this year.

Mr. RUDOLPH. There would not be so much need.

Mr. GALLIVAN. Do you not think they would need it in April? Up in my town they work overtime 12 months in the year at these institutions.

Mr. OYSTER. This is a very old building. It is a shack, in fact, and is insanitary and badly ventilated and poorly lighted.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it located on Pennsylvania Avenue?
Maj. BROWN. No, sir; on Twelfth Street.

Mr. RUDOLPH. Unless you give us that appropriation now, we can not have the place in operation next winter when we will need it so badly.

The CHAIRMAN. We hope to get all of our appropriations, whatever they may be, passed long before the 1st of June.

Maj. BROWN. There is no item in the regular budget covering this.
The CHAIRMAN. We will pass upon it anyway.
Maj. BROWN. The next item is on page 7.

LIMITATION ON EMPLOYMENT OF PERSONAL SERVICES.

The CHAIRMAN. The next item is:

The limitation of $100,000 on the employment of personal services, as fixed by section 2 of the District of Columbia appropriation act for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1922, is increased to $112,000.

Maj. BROWN. We ask for no more money there, but simply ask for authority to increase the expenditure for the employment of personal services to $112,000.

Mr. SISSON. What was the original appropriation?

Maj. BROWN. This $100,000 is a limitation upon the appropriation.

Mr. SISSON. I understand that, but you must get this money from some source. There was an original appropriation to which this limitation applies, and I want to know what that appropriation was. Maj. BROWN. This additional $12,000 is to be expended under the municipal architect's office in the preparation of school plans. Mr. ŠISSON. Then this comes out of school appropriations? Maj. BROWN. Mainly out of school appropriations.

Mr. SISSON. I wanted to know where it came from.

The CHAIRMAN. Section 2 of the appropriation act providesThat the services of draftsmen, assistant engineers, levelers, transit men, rodmen, chainmen, computers, copyists, overseers, and inspectors temporarily required in connection with sewer, street, street cleaning, or road work, or construction and repair

of buildings, and bridges, or any general or special engineering or construction work authorized by appropriations may be employed exclusively to carry into effect said appropriations, when specifically and in writing ordered by the commisioners, and all such necessary expenditures for the proper execution of said work shall be paid from and equitably charged against the sums appropriated for said work; and the .commissioners in their annual estimates shall report the number of such employee performing such services, and their work, and the sums paid to each, and out of what appropriations: Provided, That the expenditures hereunder shall not exceed $100,000 during the fiscal year 1922.

Mr. SISSON. I remember about the limitation now.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you think it is necessary to have this $12,000? Maj. BROWN. Yes, sir. The $100,000 limitation was provided, of course, in the regular appropriation act, and in the deficiency act approved June 16, we got $1,544,000 for schools. That $1,544,000 carried with it no authorization for increased expenditures for draftsmen. We have, to be sure, employed some outside architects to do a part of the work on that building program, in the desire for speed in the program, but in all except four of those jobs we do all of the mechanical work covering the heating, ventilating, plumbing, etc. That is done by draftsmen employed in the municipal architect's office. In addition to that, we must employ inspectors on those jobs, and the pay of those inspectors must fall within this limitation. The CHAIRMAN. When do you expect to put up these buildings? Maj. BROWN. One of them is under way, another set of bids is opened to-day and bids on two more are to be opened on the 23d of this month. They are coming along in very good shape.

The CHAIRMAN. Is any part of the $1,544,000 used for the purpose of paying the fees of the architects who are employed?

Maj. BROWN. The draftsmen.

The CHAIRMAN. Of the architects whom you employ?
Maj. BROWN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. If you are authorized to use any part of the $1,544,000 for the payment of outside architects, is there any reason why you can not also use a part of it for the employment of inside architects or their assistants?

Maj. BROWN. This $100,000 limitation applies to the employment of inside architects and their assistants under the law.

The CHAIRMAN. Where does the authority come from to use any part of the $1,544,000 for the services of anybody, if it does not include everybody?

Maj. BROWN. The law provides that the plans shall be prepared under the supervision of the municipal architect. Several years ago that question was brought up and carried to the Comptroller of the Treasury, who decided that there was authority to employ services of outside architects to do these jobs and, as I understand, the payment to those men did not apply against this $100,000 limitation.

The CHAIRMAN. The question arises how much supervision does the municipal architect give to the preparation of plans by the outside architects, or is it nominal?

Maj. BROWN. No, sir; it is very close supervision. Of the nine buildings which he gave out eight of them were given in the city of Washington and one went to an architect in Boston. The latter has made two or three trips here, which have constituted the amount of his supervision. The local men have been in the office of the municipal architect continually and the municipal architect has gone over