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time, awaiting the period of observation and diagnosis, and then discharged from the hospital without compensation, but the law provides, however, that all men shall be hospitalized pending the period of observation.

The CHAIRMAN. All men who make application?
Col. FORBES. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Regardless of whether they have anything the matter with them or not?

Col. FORBES. Tuberculosis and mental cases require observation to determine that. The compensation feature is determined usually after a period of three weeks to a month, dependent upon the condition of the patient and the degree of his disability. Where several X-rays are necessary and other observation must be made, it takes a correspondingly increased length of time to get the diagnosis. So every man applying for hospital care is hospitalized. The bureau has made over a million physical examinations of men.

The CHAIRMAN. Not of a million men ?

Col. FORBES. We have made over a million physical examinations, not a million men; sometimes two or three examinations of a man. We know about what our expectancy is or when we will reach the peak of our hospitalization. We believe that 35,000 men will represent the peak of our load.

The CHAIRMAN. That is 5,000 more than you have now? Col. FORBES. That is 5,000 more than we have now; yes, sir. Mr. GALLIVAX. 5,000 more than you have now? The CHAIRMAN. In the hospitals. Col. FORBES. The number of new general medical and surgical cases should reduce very rapidly now. In other words, we have probably passed the peak.

The CHAIRMAN. Please tell us what general medical cases are. Col. FORBES. The empyema and lung operations, diseases of the circulatory system, amputations, fractures, and communicable diseases except tuberculosis, constitutional diseases, digestive diseases, diseases and injuries of joints and muscles, diseases of eye, ear, nose, throat, and adnexa diseases of skin, genitourinary system, and reproductive organs.

The CHAIRMAN. How many have you now?
Col. FORBES. About 9,000.
The CHAIRMAN. About 9,000 general medical cases ?

Col. FORBES. Yes, sir. Our tuberculosis and neuropsychiatric population will increase about 3,000 over the number now hospitalized.

The CHAIRMAN. How many of those are now hospitalized ?

Col. FORBES. There are 11,900 tuberculosis cases and 8,000 neuropsychiatric cases. Mr. GALLIVAN. You only expect an increase of 3,000 ?

Col. Forbes. In the tuberculosis cases, yes, sir; and the balance in the neuropsychiatric. The difference between the two, or 2,000, is the number to be added to the nervous cases.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you reach that conclusion?

Col. FORBES. By an analysis of the hospital situation, the net increase in the number hospitalized, and also based on the rate at which we are receiving new claims. The average number of new cases received is about 700 a day. Since we started a clean-up drive, they have increased to 1,700 a day. However, in this additional

file of claimants about 65 or 70 per cent of the new cases are being disallowed.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there a limit within which they can make application ?

* Col. FORBES. There is no time limit if you can connect your disability with the service by affidavits or through other avenues of information. We have paid compensation to approximately 375,000 men or to their dependents.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the average rate ?

Col. FORBES. About $60 is the average rate for the compensation, perhaps a little less.

The CHAIRMAN. $60 a month?
Col. FORBES. I would say that would be the average compensation.

Mr. ANTHONY. How many men are there who incurred disability from wounds and how many from disease?

Col. FORBES. Of course, the greater' percentage of claimants are from disease and not from wounds.

ORGANIZATION.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell us how you are organized. What does your organization consist of ?

Col. FORBES. The organization consists of one director, an assistant director of vocational training, an assistant director of compensation and claims, an assistant director in charge of insurance. I will file a chart which shows the organization of the central office.

DIVISION OF INSURANCE.

If you will allow me to do so, I would like to explain the Insurance Division.

The CHAIRMAN. Surely.

Col. FORBES. It is an organization representing $4,000,000,000 worth of insurance.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the amount of the premiums paid on that insurance ?

COST OF TERM AND CONVERTED INSUARNCE.

Col. FORBES. There are two classes of insurance; one is term insurance and the other is Government insurance, converted insurance, the law providing that before 1926 all of this insurance must be converted to what is known as straight line insurance. I have only received my education in insurance, Mr. Chairman, since I have been in the bureau. Our average cost of writing insurance is $1 a thousand, which is much less than the cost of writing insurance in private companies.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, $1 per thousand per annum? Col. FORBES. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. And what do you get? Col. FORBES. Our insurance division to date, has been a self-supporting institution.

The CHAIRMAN. I know, but what do the premiums amount to?

Col. FORBES. The average premium on converted insurance would be about $27 per year.

The CHAIRMAN. Per thousand ?

Col. FORBES. Yes. For the term insurance the average is about $7.92 per year.

The CHAIRMAN. You are carrying the war-time rates ?

Col. FORBES. Yes; and a great many of the men are converting their insurance.

The CHAIRMAN. What does it cost?
Col. FORBES. It costs approximately $6.
The CHAIRMAN. That is what it costs the Government?

Col. FORBES. No, sir; it costs the Government $1 to write $1,000 worth of insurance.

The CHAIRMAN. But what does it cost to carry it into execution?

Col. FORBES. It costs to carry it into execution about 5 per cent for operating expenses.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not think you get my question. It costs you $1 for the actual physical work of writing it?

Col. FORBES. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, the clerical force and everything attached to it?

Col. FORBES. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And you get $6. That leaves you $5. Now, how much more than $5 does it cost the Government ?

Col. FORBES. It does not cost the Government any more than $5. The CHAIRMAN. Tell us how that happens.

Col. FORBES. Well, it is a profitable institution; we will be able to declare dividends on the converted insurance.

Mr. ANTHONY. How much less are your premiums on term insurance than a soldier would have to pay if he secured insurance from one of the standard life companies? What would be the premium, say, on a 20-payment policy for a man 21 years of age ?

Col. FORBES. That is our converted insurance. It is about $2 cheaper. Mr. ANTHONY. Per thousand ? Col. FORBES. Yes. Mr. ANTHONY. That would be about 10 per cent cheaper ? Col. FORBES. Approximately 10 per cent cheaper. Mr. BYRNS. The liability under this insurance will increase as the years go by. About how long will it be before the premiums being charged by the Government will prove insufficient to carry the losses ?

The CHAIRMAN. That is what I meant to ask.

Col. FORBES. We have a sum of money set aside for that purpose. How much is it?

Mr. ROUTSONG. In the military and naval fund, term insurance, we still have a balance of $145,000,000 in premiums that have been paid in, either direct or by transfer from the War and Navy Departments; that is the amount unexpended. It is estimated that that is sufficient to run us through 1923.

The CHAIRMAN. For the whole period of this term insurance ?
Mr. ROUTSONG. No, it will not; it will run us through 1923.

The CHAIRMAN. Then, of course, it costs you a great deal more, and it is not a profitable institution.

Col. FORBES. Our converted insurance is a profitable insurance. By this I mean that it will be possible to pay dividends to the policy- : The CHAIRMAN. That is straight life insurance? Col. FORBES. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Of course, that is a different proposition. Mr. ANTHONY. All the men who are insured now are young men, as a rule?

holders.

Col. FORBES. Yes, sir; I should say the average age was 26.

Mr. ANTHONY. As the years go by you will not recruit your ranks with young men, and as these soldiers grow old and the mortality increases, will there not come a time when your losses will far outweigh your income, or are you providing a sufficient reserve at these rates which you think will make the Government whole?

Col. FORBES. It will carry us for a considerable length of time. We are investing our earnings in Government bonds; we have now about $35,000,000 of Liberty bonds.

Mr. ANTHONY. Is the reserve you are manitaining the approved reserve required by the State insurance departments?

Col. FORBES. No, sir.
Mr. ANTHONY. How far short of it is it?

Mr. KELLEY. I think what Mr. Anthony means is this: Suppose you should insure 100,000 men 26 years of age, according to the proper rates under the American table of mortality; you would not need to take in anybody else after that, because that class would carry itself.

Col. FORBES. Yes; that class would carry itself..
Mr. ANTHONY. At the rates you are charging?
Col. FORBES. Yes, sir; it would.

NUMBER OF SERVICE MEN INSURED.

The CHAIRMAN. How many of the men who were in the service are insured ? Col. FORBES. About 640,000. The CHAIRMAN. Is the insurance open to any of the others now?

Col. FORBES. I think there is some legislation pending seeking to extend it.

Mr. GALLIVAN. Have you any idea as to how many boys dropped their insurance?

Col. FORBES. About 60 per cent.

VOCATIONAL REHABILITATION.

The CHAIRMAN. What I am interested in now more particularly is to find out how you find a necessity for $77,257,000 more for vocational training during the balance of this fiscal year?

Col. FORBES. Well, it is dependent altogether on the number of men who are vocationalized.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you such a statement ?
Col. FORBES. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Give it to us.

NUMBER OF MEN IN TRAINING AND ELIGIBLE FOR TRAINING.

Mr. ROUTSONG. It is estimated that the number of men in training and receiving maintenance pay as of the 1st of the month will be as follows throughout this fiscal year:

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May .........

July .........
.. 90, 877 January..

95, 044 August....... 92, 414 February.

95, 297 September...

90, 621
March...

95, 935 October... 827 April..

95, 435 November...................... 92, 371

96, 251 December..... ... 93, 290 | June.......

97,232 That is estimated, Mr. Chairman, on the number in training at the beginning of the year, actually in training being 91,000 and increasing to the end of the year to 98,000.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you make the calculation ? Mr. ROUTSONG. It was based upon the average rate at which the men from this reservoir of 440,000 applicants were going into training, the average net rate being slightly in excess of 4,000 per month.

Mr. KELLEY. Since when ?

Mr. ROUTSONG. That rate has been going on now for about twelve months, as I recall.

The CHAIRMAN. How many were in training at the beginning of the period about which you are talking ?

Mr. Routsong. There were 56,000; that was last November.

Mr. GALLIVAN. Right here I want to ask a question which I think ought to come in here and the figures bear out the colonel's statement. Approximately 100,000 men are now receiving vocational training.

The CHAIRMAN. 91,000.

Col. FORBES. That is section 2 training, where the trainee receives maintenance pay. Section 3 training, 8,000, where the trainee receives no maintenance pay, and section 6 training, 500, where there are a few in hospitals who are taking vocational training.

Mr. GALLIVAN. The colonel said there was a net registration of 440,000. Are those 440,000 in addition to the men now getting training?

Col. FORBES. No, sir.

Mr. GALLIVAN. Here is what I want to ask: Approximately how many are awaiting vocational training; that is, those who have applied for it but have not been granted the training?

Co. FORBES. There are 27,000 whose eligibility had not been determined. Mr. GALLIVAN. Have 400,000 applied ? Col. FORBES. Yes, 440,000. Mr. GALLIVAN. They have qualified ?

Col. FORBES. No, not all of them; 285,000 have been declared eligible. This includes men who because of their physical condition can not take training at the present time.

Mr. GALLIVAN. And there are 400,000 now waiting ?
Col. FORBES. No.

Mr. ANTHONY. This training is only supposed to be given disabled men?

Col. FORBES. That is all, disabled men.

Mr. ANTHONY. Are there 400,000 more disabled men in addition to those that you have in training, do you think?

Col. FORBES. The net registration at this time is 440,000.

Mr. ANTHONY. That is, through diseases that have come since the war?

Col. FORBES. Yes, sir. Some of these are due to diseases developed since the war.

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