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Mr. GALLIVAN. Will these 440,000 be denied vocational training if you do not get this appropriation ?

Col. FORBES. The 280,000 declared eligible would be directly affected, and the training of some 100,000 will lack funds to continue.

Mr. BYRNS. As I understand it, there are 440,000 drawing compensation ?

Col. FORBES. Between 90,000 and 91,000 are receiving maintenance pay. They receive this while in training under section 2 of the act.

Mr. BYRNS. You say there are 440,000 who are eligible for training?

Col. FORBES. Four hundred and forty thousand made application for training and 128,000 have been granted training.

Mr. Byrns. I understood you to say a moment ago that there were 440,000 eligible for training.

Col. FORBES. Four hundred and forty thousand made application for training.

Mr. GALLIVAN. And they have qualified ?

Mr. BYRNS. And they have qualified. Does that mean they have all applied for it?

Col. FORBES. Yes.
Mr. BYRNS. But have not received it?
Col. FORBES. Not as yet.
Mr. GALLIVAN. There will be more than 440,000 then?
Col. FORBES. There will be many more.

The CHAIRMAN. You say they have been coming in at the rate of 4,000 per month for the last eight months. Tell us how many you had by months, giving the number each month from the 1st of last January

Mr. ROUTSONG. I will give you round figures which denote the net increase. January, 66,000; February, 71,000; March, 76,000; April, 80,000; May, 83,500; June, 85,300; July, -; and now we get into 1922—88,000; August, 92,400; September, 96,000.

The CHAIRMAN. And October ?

Mr. ROUTSONG. October 15, 99,000, including the section 3 men who get supplies and training but do not get the maintenance pay.

AVERAGE COST PER TRAINEE.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, you substantially have 99,000 getting vocational training. What is the average cost per man per month?

Col. FORBES. The average cost I would say is $126.
The CHAIRMAN. $170.
Col. FORBES. $170 is the maximum to those having dependents.

The CHAIRMAN. How is the expense divided, and is the man who is being trained required to pay any part of the expense incurred out of what he gets ?

Col. FORBES. Absolutely not; the Government pays him his vocational maintenance without any strings to it other than for his board and lodging if he is in one of the centers.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what I mean. He is required to pay his board and lodging out of what he gets ?

Col. FORBES. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How many men do you expect to have by the 30th of next June and what will be the average for the entire year!

Col. Forbes. On the basis of expectancy?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. ROUTSONG. 97,200. These are section 2 men.

The CHAIRMAN. You expect that many on the 30th of June?
Mr. ROUTSONG. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What would be the average number for the year beginning the 1st of last July and ending the 30th of next June?

Mr. ROUTSONG. I think the average is about 93,700.
The CHAIRMAN. How do you get that?

Mr. ROUTSONG. I take it that you mean the average number of men monthly.

The CHAIRMAN. The average number of men for the year. For example, you have gone from 56,000 up to some ninety-odd thousand; you dropped from 90,000 and you have gone back again to 90,800, and you expect to get 97,500, or something like that, by the end of the year. Now, what would be the average number for the entire year and what will be the average cost? I want to know how you get at these figures.

Mr. ROUTSONG. The average number in training at any one time would be 93,798 or, say, 93,800, and the cost was figured

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). At $110?
Mr. ROUTSONG. No, sir.

Col. FORBES. That was my statement, Mr. Chairman. The statistics here may differ from that somewhat.

Mr. ROUTSONG. It was estimated that the administrative cost would be about $10 per man per month and the direct training expense, including maintenance pay, books, tuition, etc., about

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The CHAIRMAN (interposing). We want the whole cost.

Col. FORBES. I did not give you that cost because I was going to give that under another head.

The CHAIRMAN. It is all a part of the vocational training, and we want to get the figures so we will understand them, because we are laymen.

Mr. ROUTSONG. It is estimated that it will cost $141,757,000 to take care of the number of men which I indicated to you through the year.

The CHAIRMAN. And an average of 93,000 ?
Mr. ROUTSONG. The average number will be about 93,800.
The CHAIRMAN. That would be $1,500 a man, would it not?
Mr. ROUTSONG. Per year; yes.
The CHAIRMAN. That would be an average of about $125 a month.

Mr. ROUTSONG. Yes; it was figured on the basis of $126, including the administrative expense and all.

The CHAIRMAN. You have had $65,000,000 and whatever unexpended balances came over from 1920 and 1921. Have you those figures?

Mr. ROUTSONG. There were practically no unobligated balances transferred, Mr. Chairman, and, furthermore, the $65,000,000 included $500,000 in the revolving fund which, of course, can not be disbursed.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a small amount, and we will say $65,000,000 and $77,257,000. That makes $142,000,000, and you said $141,000,000 a moment ago. That would be on the basis of $126 a month per man.

Mr. ROUTSONG. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And there would be an average of 93,000 men for the year?

LENGTH OF TRAINING.
Mr. ROUTSONG. Ninety-three thousand eight hundred.

The CHAIRMAN. For how long a period is a man permitted to continue his vocational training? What is the limit? Col. FORBES. A man can receive a college education. The CHAIRMAN. You mean he can start in de novo? Col. FORBES. He can receive a college education and complete a 4-year course; he can take placement training and continue until he becomes efficient in his work.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by placement training?

Col. FORBES. Placement with the trades. Forty-one per cent of our vocational population is taking placement training in shops, etc.

PLACEMENT TRAINERS DRAWING ADDITIONAL PAY.

· The CHAIRMAN. Are they permitted to draw any pay from the shop in which they are engaged or any pay other than that allowed them by the Government ?

Col. FORBES. There has been no ruling against it, but we propose to make that deduction. I have a list of a great many men who are drawing on an average of $200 a month, their pay from the Government and their pay from the employer. In addition the Government is paying the employer to train the man; the man is productive to the employer, and that is why he is being paid. I had some new cases come in to-day where the men are receiving a like sum from the employers as they receive from the Government, some of them receiving as high as $325 a month.

The CHAIRMAN. A man who is able to earn $150 a month while he is being vocationally trained has been classed as in a state of disability ?

Col. FORBES. He has been so classed in the past, but we are discontinuing that.

The CHAIRMAN. To what extent?

Col. Forbes. As rapidly as we can. It requires a check on all of these men.

The CHAIRMAN. How many men are now in training who draw pay from the concerns with which they are connected ?

Col. FORBES. I should say 25 per cent.
The CHAIRMAN. Of the total ?

Col. FORBES. Twenty-five per cent of the 41,000 that are taking placement training. That, however, is an approximate estimate.

The CHAIRMAN. And that is permissible under the law?
Col. Forbes. There is nothing in the act to prevent it.
The CHAIRMAN. It is purely an administrative function?
Col. FORBES. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the tendency of the administration in dealing with questions of that sort ?

Col. FORBES. My thought and my activity in this particular regard is to cut the difference, to allow him 15 per cent of what the employer pays him without affecting his Government status.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean, to have the Government pay the additional 15 per cent ?

Col. FORBES. No; 15 per cent of what he receives from his employer.

The CHAIRMAN. Would that take any of these men out of training or would it simply lighten the burden on the employer?

Col. Forbes. It would take no one out of training and would not affect the amounts paid as wages by employers.

The CHAIRMAN. Would it be of any benefit to the Government or any disadvantage to the man?

Col. FORBES. It would benefit both. .
The CHAIRMAN. In what way?

Col. FORBES. It would be an advantage to the man because he would receive a sum more commensurate with his needs and his earning capacity. Formerly he was actually encouraged to keep on the vocational roll because he received an amount in excess of his true earning capacity.

The CHAIRMAN. And what advantage would it be to the Government?

Col. FORBES. The Government would profit in two ways: First, it could report progress on men in placement training, which it has been unable to do before, and, second, some money would be saved.

The CHAIRMAN. In what way?
Col. FORBES. By deducting it.
The CHAIRMAN. You would deduct 15 per cent ?
Col. FORBES. I would deduct all but 15 per cent.

The CHAIRMAN. And to the extent that you deducted it you would reduce the amount paid by the Government ?

Col. FORBES. Yes, sir. Of course, there is a tendency on the part of some employers not to give you the information that they are paying the man, and frequently the man refuses to give you the information. I believe that the school program we are inaugurating is going to be an answer to that entire placement training.

SCHOOLS VOUCHERING FOR SERVICES NOT PERFORMED.

(See p. 308.) The Chairman. Do you know of any cases where men are taking vocational training only in name?

Col. FORBES. Lots of them.
The CHAIRMAN. Give us a few cases.
Col. FORBES. I could not call the names to you.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not care about the names but give us a few illustrations

Col. FORBES. Well, take the Berkeley Pre-Vocational School; they have vouchered us for servicesMr. GALLIVAN (interposing). In Boston, by the way?

Col. FORBES. Yes. They have vouchered us for services they did not render.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you pay when they voucher in that way?

Col. FORBES. No, sir; not if we know it, and we have been able to get track of them in many instances. We are having all of these

schools investigated. The men, in many cases, absent themselves from their employment, and repeatedly people have vouchered the Government for a man's attendance when he really has not been there.

The CHAIRMAN. I would not think that such a man comes within the spirit of the act, because he is not really taking the training for which the Government is authorizing an expenditure.

EXTRAVAGANT WASTE IN VOCATIONAL TRAINING.

(See p. 304.) Col. FORBES. There are a great many men who are taking this training determined to rehabilitate themselves and become useful, but in the great speed in which they attempted to get men into vocational training, there was a great lack of proper administrative thought; there was a lack of business application; and, in fact, the entire vocational program, as I reviewed it after having the organization come over to me, satisfied me that there had been a great deal of carelessness, willful carelessness, in that particular arm of the Government.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any idea what that carelessness cost the Government, without doing any good to the men ?

Col. Forbes. How much it cost?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Col. FORBES. A couple of hundred million, roughly speaking.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any attempt now being made to curtail that expense without curtailing the right of the men to proper training, where they are justified in expecting it?

Col. FORBES. There is. The CHAIRMAN. To what extent have you succeeded ? Col. FORBES. We are succeeding very well in this work by first finding the class of training for the man that he is best suited to do and placing him in such a place where we know he will be properly supervised.

The CHAIRMAN. But the question I asked, Colonel, was this: To what extent have you been able to reduce this unjustifiable cost of $200,000,000 ?

Col. FORBES. When the Sweet bill passed we stated that it would cost $14,000,000 more a year to operate under it than it did before, but we find nowm-at least, we are quite sure and hopeful--that we are going to operate the bureau without that additional cost.

The CHAIRMAN. If $200,000,000 has been squandered in this way, without any beneficial effect to anybody, how much of it are we going to cut out?

Col. FORBES. I might explain that when I say $200,000,000 it means misplacement of men, failure to rehabilitate the thousands of men who have been put in training, purchases of unnecessary property, leasing of property, administration, and equipping at the Government's expense institutions that are operated by private concerns in which outside students are working on the machines paid for by the Government.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by outside students ?
Col. FORBES. Students other than Government beneficiaries.

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