Previous to this time carried under allotment for Fine Crest Sanitorium.

The CHAIRMAN. We would be glad to see them, but we would like to have this analysis made by your experts. Col. FORBES. You will have the analysis.

INSTITUTIONAL EQUIPMENT.

The CHAIRMAN. The next item is for institutional equipment, for which the expenditure for last year was $349,681.07, while for next year you estimate $866,707.38. I would like to have you tell us what this institutional equipment is.

Col. FORBES. That is all mechanical equipment.

The CHAIRMAN. Do we own the institutions?

Col. FORBES. No, sir; not the institutions, but we do own the equipment.

The CHAIRMAN. In all places where men are assigned the equipment is supplied by the Government?

Col. FORBES. Not at all places; no, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. It seems that you are going to supply a good deal more equipment at institutions we do not own.

Col. FORBES. I might say that a good many of these contracts for equipment were made before the amalgamation of the bureaus. Some of them we had to go through with, while some of them we refused to go through with. For instance, I refused to open bids for the moving-picture machines that came in the sum of $100,000 plus $500 per month for the film service, because we had lots of movingpicture machines belonging to the Government that we could use. The CHAIRMAN. Were those machines for the entertainment of the men?

Col. FORBES. For instruction, principally.

The CHAIRMAN. What is this institutional equipment?

Col. FORBES. That means equipment put into those shops, into schools, and into hospitals. We had a great deal of equipment shipped to hospitals that I have disapproved of, believing that if a man could follow a vocational period of training in a hospital he should not be hospitalized, but put in a vocational training school. There was a great deal of that, and that also applies to occupational therapy and all equipment in the hospitals.

The CHAIRMAN. Does the fact that the Government supplies equipment in these institutions make any difference in the amount that they have to pay the institutions?

Col. FORBES. No, sir; not a bit.

The CHAIRMAN. Would it not seem rather strange that we should employ institutions to do the work in this training for the Government, and then supply them with the machinery that they have to use?

Col. FORBES. It does; and it is absolutely wrong. One of the great evils in this situation is the purchasing of equipment lax methods in accounting for tools supplied to trainees. I do not believe the Vocational Board could produce $15 worth of the tools that they supplied to trainees.

Mr. WOOD. What became of them?

Col. FORBES. I do not know.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the policy now?

Col. FORBES. We furnish so many tools, and hold the man responsible for them.

The CHAIRMAN. I mean in the matter of supplying institutions with equipment?

Col. FORBES. We are not doing that any more in these private institutions.

Mr. BLACK. The Government retains title to the institutional equipment.

The CHAIRMAN. The expenditure for institutional equipment in 1921 was $349,681.07, while you are estimating for 1922 $866,707.38. Mr. BLACK. A lot of those obligations came over with the transfer.

INSTRUCTORS AND JOB EMPLOYEES.

The CHAIRMAN. For instructors and job employees the expenditure for 1921 was $132,569.04, while for 1922 you are estimating $225,118.80. Tell us about that.

Col. FORBES. Instructors are employed chiefly to instruct men in placement training. An instructor will rarely have more than one man under him, and in a way this is similar to apprentice training.

The amount paid the instructors is comparatively small, as the man presumably assists him with his work and at the same time learning the trade. Instructors should not be confused with teachers, who are discussed under a separate head.

MEDICAL ATTENTION, MEDICAL EXAMINATION, AND MEDICAL SUPPLIES.

The CHAIRMAN. For medical attention, medical examination, and medical supplies, the expenditure in 1921 was $76,694.37, and you are estimating for 1922, $146,327.22.

Col. FORBES. That also includes medical examinations.

The CHAIRMAN. How many medical men have you employed, how many medical examinations have been made, and what amount of medical supplies has been purchased? All of that should be enumerated in your answer to this question.

Col. FORBES. The number of medical men employed by the board on a salary basis was comparatively small. The majority of physicians performing these examinations were on a fee basis and were allowed $3 for an examination. The amount spent for medical supplies was very small; for the fiscal year 1921 it amounted to $876.95. Medical attention, $4,945.47. Therefore the greater part of this expenditure was for examinations to determine eligibility and fitness for training paid in fees.

MISCELLANEOUS.

The CHAIRMAN. For the item of miscellaneous, the expenditures in 1921 were $61,682.58, while you are estimating for 1922, $56,279.70. What does "miscellaneous" in this connection mean?

Mr. ROUTSONG. I believe our chief clerk can answer that.

Mr. BLACK. That includes postage and street car fares.

Col. FORBES. Why do we pay postage?

Mr. BLACK. Because it is necessary to register the notices to the trainees when they enter for training. Then, it is necessary to pay postage on all training supplies weighing over 4 pounds. You can not ship more than 4 pounds to one person in any one day under a Government frank. For all over that you must pay postage. Furthermore, you can not subdivide them into two packages so as to evade the postal regulations, but you must pay that postage. For instance, if you have a man in training in Richmond, Va., and you want to ship him some carpenter tools or drafting tools that weigh more than 4 pounds, you have to pay postage on them.

The CHAIRMAN. Would not that come under the head of freight and express charges?

Mr. BLACK. Yes, sir; but sometimes we find it cheaper to do this. The CHAIRMAN. You have an item of over $90.000 here for freight and express charges.

Mr. BLACK. We use a great deal of postage in the shipment of books where the weight is over 4 pounds.

The CHAIRMAN. Would not those expenditures be classified under freight and express

Mr. BLACK. This is cheaper and saves time.

The CHAIRMAN. As I have said, you have an item of over $90.000 for freight and express, and it would appear that you are including this same sort of stuff under the head of "miscellaneous."

Mr. BLACK. No, sir; we use whichever is the cheapest method. If we have a large shipment, and have the time, we send it by freight. If it is a smaller quantity, we send it by express, and we also utilize the Postal Service. Out of Washington you can use the Postal Service.

Col. FORBES. Moreover, we are taking over from the Army and Navy and other Government agencies a lot of equipment that they have on hand, and while we do not have to pay for the equipment; we have to pay the freight and express charges on it.

The CHAIRMAN. You put those expenditures under the head of freight and express, and, it seems to me, you should not put them under both of these heads.

Mr. BLACK. We have to reimburse the Army and Navy for the expense of packing articles. Another expense is for street car tokens and fares.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you class that as miscellaneous?

Mr. BLACK. We do.

SUBSISTENCE.

The CHAIRMAN. For subsistence, the expenditures in 1921 were $96,606.53, while you are estimating for 1922 $123,815.34. What does that consist of? Is that subsistence for men in training?

Col. FORBES. No, sir; we do not subsist the men in training. This provides for men who are in for examination and for authorized transfers. They receive $3 per day while in the district offices or local offices.

The CHAIRMAN. Does the law provide for that?

Col. FORBES. I believe it does in the vocational act.

The CHAIRMAN. That is in accordance with the law, is it?

Col. FORBES. Yes, sir; it is for the meal tickets.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it provided for by law?

Mr. BLACK. I can not find the section, but the auditor has been passing those bills for two or three years, so they must be all right.

TEACHERS' SALARIES.

The CHAIRMAN. The next item is teachers' salaries. How do you differentiate teachers from instructors? The teachers' salaries last year were $394,003.48, and this year you propose $1,294,433.10. In order to have an intelligent conception of the reason for this increase it seems to me we ought to be able to know the number of men that were employed as teachers last year, the rate of pay they received, the number of men it is proposed to employ this year, the rate of pay they are to receive, and why the increased number.

Col. FORBES. Teachers' salaries for the first nine months of the fiscal year 1921 were carried under administrative salaries, in the Vocational Board's accounts. The figure $394,003.48 is for the last three months of the fiscal year, or at the rate of $1,500,000 per year. Prior to that time the expense was charged to overhead expense, but