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Col. FORBES. The amount paid in salaries at the central office in September was $647,000. This includes all divisions of the central office.

The CHAIRMAN. I see here “Administrative, salaries, $7,980,000.” Col. FORBES. That is approximately correct, it includes central office and field employees taken over from the Federal board by the central office of the Veterans' Bureau will be paid throughout this year out of the appropriation for vocational rehabilitation, although they have been combined with other divisions in some instances to promote efficiency, as I have explained. Their salaries will amount to approximately $1,493,000 this year. The remainder of the estimated requirement, $6,487,461, is to cover salaries in the field. am submitting an itemized list showing how the personnel which this covers is distributed. They number 5,952 and their salaries total $9,419,874. After I took over the bureau I reduced the personnel of the central office 1,000.

The CHAIRMAN. And you are getting along just as well?

Col. FORBES. Yes, sir. The chiefs of divisions are always calling for more personnel, but I refused to give it to them.

Mr. GALLIVAN. You do not make any new appointments?
Col. FORBES. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. Gallivan. You dropped a thousand; did you fill their places!
Col. Forbes. No, sir.
Mr. Gallivan. Did you fill any of their places ?
Col. FORBES. Yes, sir.
Mr. GALLIVAN. What percentage?
Col. FORBES. A very small percentage.
Mr. Gallivan. Approximately how much?
Col. FORBES. So far, less than 1 per cent.

REGIONAL OFFICES.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you 14 regional offices?
Col. FORBES. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAX. Where are they located?

Col. FORBES. New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Atlanta, St. Louis, Dallas, Tex.; Seattle, San Francisco, Chicago, Minneapolis, Washington, D. C.; New Orleans, and Cincinnati.

The CHAIRMAN. Detroit ?
Col. FORBES. No, sir; Detroit is a suboffice.

NUMBER OF EMPLOYEES-COST OF OFFICES.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell us about how many people are employed in each one of these regional offices and what is the cost of each office!

Col. FORBES. The following is a statement, first, of the number of employees in each district office and field as of September 1, and, second, the amount disbursed on account of administration for each district. I have a similar record for each office and suboffice. This will be checked against the work they do monthly to show efficiency or inefficiency.

Note.-Number of employees in each district office as of September 1, and in the district as a whole, was as follows:

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United States literans' Bureou - Erpenditures by listricts for administratiin pari poses

Aug. 10-Sepl. 30). 1971.

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Personal services:
Salaries.

$171,480,33 $36,649.26 $202,670.57 $158,572.97 $171,351.18 $1:36,224.19 $229,414.02 $261,984.72 Travel and transpor

tation of employees. 5,318. 45 10, 47.93 5, 565, 75 6. 764.30 18, 317. 17 8,57.3.76 10, 391.71 15.051. 52 Rentals..

614.60 38, 697.98 11, 368. 25 3,614.00 11,728. 64 5,317.73 3,361.63' 19, 153. 30 Repairs and maintenance.

71. 70 835. 06 119.31 418,66 3.00 201.80 182. 55 190. 57 Light, heat, water, and ice. 19. SO 1, 170. 16 3.95 337.62

4.85 34,00 1, 421.87 Telephone and telegraph.

616. 23
628. 48
328, 28 282. 29 259. 63 202.37 55. 73

1,938. 15 Freight, express,

and drayage.

785. 16 2, 154, 19 676.54 1, 986, 20 3, 969. 69 2,725.96 1, 507.36 2,140. 40 Towels and laundry service.

14.60 6. 10
2.00 1. 25

6.75

9. 10 Motor vehicles and operating costs.

51. 45

21.77 13. 48 36. 51 31.75 93. 70 Miscellaneous (stamps, etc.).

77.37 306.97 46. 251 50. 201 95. 10 105. 15 273.95 128. 45 Printingand binding. I 1875. 48 1723. 05 1 799. 87 11,066.90 1 1, 608. 40 1 1,668. 13' 11, 015.97 1 1,070. 56 Stationery and minor 12,614. 43 ? 1,720.35 1 722.93 i 1, 250.62 12,519.82 11, 381.61 1615, 15 1 430. 65 office supplies.

586, 44 2,071. 48 112. 25 1,068.81 1, 446,58 589.50 1,098, 96 730. 62 Furniture and equip. 112,751. 4318, 220.52 13, 406. 95 9,058.96 1,745.83 19, 328. 103, 208. 27 16, 745.07 ment.

1,015. 31 1, 452, 42 157.66 2, 914.93 49.88 2, 347.21 1, 439. 22 2,683. 92

Total adminis-
trative.......

186, 772. 33 105, 161. 40 225, 980. 56 187, 409. 48, 213, 108. 10 168,913. 82 252, 660, 28 313,773. 10

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Personal services: Salaries, $145,108.75 $123,703.68 $123,825.31 $211,137.32 $88, 807. 10 $117,311.81 $2,478,172.17 Travel and transportation and employees.

18, 412, 71 16, 599, 10 6, 461.04 8,212. 82 9, 480. 14 14, 819, 37 154, 441. 77 Rentals. 4, 431. 09 3,974. 75 7.570.83 2,099. 31 5, 159, 59 4,005, 02

121,097, 11 Repairs and maintenance.

28.03 177. 66 285. 12 36. 50 91. 2.5 784.94 3, 129. 15 Light, heat, water, and ice... 9. 63 6. 43 6. 75

4. 85

51. 71 3,071.62 Te ephone and te egraph.. 528. 62 336.43 251.55 726. Si 380.05 922. 51 7. 157. 13 Freight, express, and drayage 2,599.66 1, 112.01 3, 470. 19 3, 255. 1,082. 52 1, 457.35 28, 923. 14 Towes and aundry servier. 17.50 19.50

185. 26

45. 48 16. 41 325, 28 Motor vehicles and operating costs.. 185. 41 41.22 317.67 16. &

3.65 371.61 1,188. 11 Miscellaneous (stamps, etc.).. 151.00 30.62 15. 19 75. 2: 70. 45 32. 05 1, 188. 30 Printing and binding..

1 513.95 1 672.33
1513. 28 1873.98

1389. 96 1 769. 62 1 12,561. 48 3. 75

2. 32

6.07 Stationery and minor office 13, 229.781 1, 464.95

1 277.50 11 12. 62 1 396. 13 1 17,929. 61 suppies

i 1,787.52 100. 90 1,610.98 1, 213.92 1,008. 72 663. 42 14,092. 10 Furniture and equipment... 6, 122.67 16,909.37 ' 2,639. 592, 947. 2: 1176.35 1 1,271.72 165, 132. 05

1, 225, 36 1, 186, 82 912. 56 3,774. 99 978. 48 5,114.98 25, 253. 74

1933.07

Total a:Iministrative....184.651.68 156, 33.7. 89 149,033. 14234, 648. 60108, 121.21 147, 999.032, 934, 368. 83

· Figures indicate supplies shipped by chief clerk from central office.

The CHAIRMAN. Why is there that difference?

Col. Forbes. That is dependent upon the ex-soldier population in the district.

The CHAIRMAN. Are not these offices located with a view to averaging up the regional offices so that each one will have approximately the same number of soldiers under its jurisdiction?

Col. FORBES. It has reference to the ex-soldier population within the district, and we have located the regional offices as advantageously as possible with reference to the ex-soldier population.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you give us the exact number of employees in each regional office!

Col. FORBES. My statement includes that.

SALARIES.

The CHAIRMAN. We will be glad also to have the aggregate annual cost and the range of salaries or the range from the lowest to the highest, but it will not be necessary to enumerate each salary.

Col. FORBES. The highest salary paid in any district, with one exception, is $5,000. That one exception is the Philadelphia office. The doctor who was sent there as district manager is a man of unusual ability as an administrator, as well as being an expert on several of the diseases. He receives $6,000; $5,000 a year for the pay of the regional manager is not enough. It requires a big man to conduct the affairs of one of those offices, but we started off at $5,000 until they exhibited sufficient ability to warrant an increase.

The CHAIRMAN. For example, a man in an office with 500 employees under him would not be paid as much as a man with 1,000 employees under him.

Col. FORBES. Yes, sir. It does seem to be a bit unfair, but I believe that it was the best way to do it, because by studying these men and knowing their characteristics and development, it might be necessary to transfer men from small districts to larger districts, where they could do better work.

The CHAIRMAN. I suppose you know that the Assistant Secretaries of the various departments of the Government receive only $5,000 a year?

Col. FORBES. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And these are subordinate positions. I see that you have it in mind to increase them over $5,000. Now, do you think it would be good business for your bureau to establish a system of salaries that would exceed those fixed by law for people who are occupying more important administrative positions ?

Col. Forbes. I do not believe that any Assistant Secretary is occupying a more important position than the district managers employed in this work. An Assistant Secretary considers the honor of his job as a part of the compensation.

The CHAIRMAN. There is a good deal of honor attached to these jobs, is there not?

('ol. Forbes. It is all honor when we speak of honor literally.

The CHAIRMAX. There is honor attached to the position of district manager.

Col. Forbes. Yes, sir, there is: but the prestige bas much to do with the position of an Assistant Secretary.

The CHAIRMAN. For example, the First Assistant Postmaster General, who has 150,000 men under'his jurisdiction, receives $5,000 a year.

Col. FORBES. But the First Assistant Postmaster General is having to deal with a class of intelligent employees, or a class of mentally and physically able employees.

The CHAIRMAN. You could not say that those men who fought in the ranks were not intelligent men, would you?

Col. FORBES. Certainly not; but we have a great many N. P. cases, and men with only a very elementray education.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean by N. P. cases ?

Col. FORBES. Neuro-psychiatric cases. There are also cases of tuberculosis, which are very difficult from an administrative point of view.

Mr. GALLIVAN. The chairman was speaking of employees.
The CHAIRMAN. I mean in the administrative work.

Col. FORBES. The district manager has something to do with all the people in his district.

The CHAIRMAN. I will say to you for your information, that I would like to have you take into consideration the fact that it is not the policy of Congress to have any chief of a bureau paid a compensation higher than is being paid to men in other branches of the Government service doing equally responsible work. There are no exceptions to that rule, and I wish you would be kind enough to keep that in mind in fixing the salaries of these district managers.

Col. FORBES. I will be glad to do that, but I wanted you to understand what a problem we have.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you ever read over the appropriations and note the limitations fixed on the amount that you can pay to any given individuals?

Col. FORBES. Yes, sir.

Mr. Routsong. The Federal board very carefully kept within the limitations fixed by law with regard to their employees, and that is still being complied with in so far as those appropriations are concerned. The appropriations for salaries and expenses for the Bureau of War Risk Insurance also carried limitations, but the appropriation for the medical and hospital service carried no limitations as to the salaries paid.

The CHAIRMAN. I am talking about the salaries of the district managers and of the men employed in other administrative positions. I am not talking about the expenses of the soldiers or the expense of their care and rehabilitation; but in the administration of this fund, which is a sacred fund appropriated for a sacred purpose, I would like to impress upon you the thought, and when I say that, I am sure it is the thought of every member of this committee and the thought of every Member of Congress, that we do not want any part of the money that we intend for the rehabilitation of these men to be paid to some man for the management of the fund.

Col. FORBES. The act provides that certain salaries in the War Risk Insurance Bureau, or which are covered in the original war risk insurance act

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). What does it say about district managers ?

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Col. FORBES. It does not say, anything about them.

Mr. KELLEY. You as the head of the consolidated work have authority to fix those district managers' salaries under your bureau !

Col. FORBES. Yes, sir.
Mr. KELLEY. That is your understanding?
Col. FORBES. Yes, sir.

Mr. Wood. I think there was a limitation put in a deficiency act that extended the number.

Col. FORBES. It extended the number.

Mr. Wood. A limit was fixed beyond which certain salaries should not be paid.

Col. FORBES. That was in the war risk insurance act.

Mr. Wood. I remember that in a deficiency act we took the suggestion of Col. Cholmeley-Jones and extended the number of highsalaried men.

Mr. Black. There are three appropriations under which we are working. One of them, the war risk act, contains limitations in the current legislative bill. Then there is the vocational act, which contains limitations; but the medical and hospital service act does not contain any limitations.

The CHAIRMAN. All of those bureaus were consolidated and turned over to the Veterans' Bureau, and here is what that law provides:

Sec. 8. All sums heretofore appropriated for carrying out the provisions of the war risk insurance act and amendments thereto, and to carry out the provisions of the act entitled “An act to provide for vocational rehabilitation and return to civil employment of disabled person discharged from the military or naval forces of the United States, and for other purposes,'' approved June 27, 1918, and amendments thereto, shall, where unexpended, be made available for the Veterans' Bureau and may be expended in such manner as the director deems necessary in carrying out the purposes of this act, with the restrictions heretofore imposed as to the number of persons that may be employed at stated salaries.

Therefore you can not go beyond a restricted amount in fixing compensation.

Mr. BLACK. And in no case have we done so; but the medical and hospital service appropriation does not come within the provisions of that act:

Mr. Byrns. You do not pay the district managers out of the medical and hospital appropriation, do you?

Mr. BLACK. Yes, sir.

Mr. BYRNs. Do you do that for the purpose of evading those limitations?

Mr. Black. That is the only appropriation available for the purpose.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you paying the district managers out of the medical and hospital appropriation?

Col. FORBES. Yes, sir.

Mr. KELLEY. I should think that you would pay them out of the vocational appropriation.

Mr. BLACK. On April 21, 1921, the Secretary of the Treasury turned over to the War Risk Bureau all of the activities formerly performed by the Public Health Service in this connection, except the hospital service, and the War Risk Bureau took over the district offices. The Public Health Service was maintaining offices at the same places, and the Public Health Service supervisors at the district offices were in charge of those district offices. The district

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