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managers and the Public Health officers were paid out of the medical and hospital appropriation by allotment from the War Risk Insurance Bureau to the Public Health Service, and we are now carrying on the same work from exactly the same appropriation.

The CHAIRMAN. But when you took these services over there were funds available for the salaries with the restrictions and limitations provided in the appropriations. Now, of course, if these hospital funds are being used to pay the salaries of the district managers just for the purpose of avoiding those limitations and restrictions as to compensation, we will have to change them.

Mr. BLACK. The district manager of the Veterans' Bureau and the supervisor of the Public Health Service occupy exactly the same position.

Mr. Byrns. Not the supervisor of the Public Health Service?
Mr. BLACK. Yes, sir; it is a consolidation of that service.

Mr. BYRNS. You are employing men in those positions who are not physicians ?

Mr. BLACK. The supervisor of the Public Health Service was an administrative officer, and he was in charge.

Mr. BYRNs. In addition to the district manager, you have to have some one with professional skill.

Col. FORBES. We have regular physicians. Mr. BYRNs. To perform the same service formerly performed by the Public Health Service ?

Col. FORBES. We have the medical staff provided for by the Sweet bill.

Mr. GALLIVAN. How many district managers are doctors ?
Col. FORBES. Two.
The CHAIRMAN. Where do you have doctors as district managers?
Col. FORBES. At two places, Philadelphia and Boston.

The CHAIRMAN. You would not pay the district manager more because he was a doctor?

Col. FORBES. If he had the administrative ability. I would not pay him more because he was a doctor.

There is another thing to be considered

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). The doctor would not be apt to have more administrative ability.

Col. FORBES. No, sir; the rule is very strict in favor of the layman and not the doctor. There is another thing to be considered: The district manager does a great deal of traveling, if he is doing the proper thing by his district, and he is allowed $4 per day for subsistence. If any district manager can cover his district without having it to cost him $500 personally, he is not on his job.

The CHAIRMAN. But he is doing what every other person employed by the Government is doing. He is allowed $4 per day for subsistence, and there is no reason why a district manager in this activity should be paid any more in the way of a traveling allowance than any other Government employee.

Col. FORBES. Of course he has to travel much more.
The CHAIRMAN. Not any more than some of the others.
Col. FORBES. But the expense is greater.
The CHAIRMAN. Why?

Col. FORBES. He is traveling from place to place, and to a great many places where automobile hire is necessary. He has to go into

sections of the country where we have suboffices, and it is quite expensive.

SUBOFFICES.

The CHAIRMAN. How many suboffices have you?
Col. FORBES. There are 124.
The CHAIRMAN. Tell us where they are.

Col. FORBES. I will give a list showing where they are and their personnel, as of September 1. New Bedford does not appear in this list because it has just recently been authorized. Number of suboffices organized in each State and District and the approximate number

of employees, including both whole and part time, as of Sept. 1, 1921.

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Number of suboffices organized in each State and District and the approximate number

of employees, including both whole and part time, as of Sept. 1, 1921-Continued.

[graphic]

6. Headquarters, New Hibernia Bank Building New Orleans (personnel, doctors, 14; others 321)--Continued.

Alabama...

8. Headquarters, eighth floor Leiter Building, Chicago (personnel, doctors, 37; others, 689):

Illinois....

9. Headquarters, 6801 Ditnam Boulevard, St. Louis (personnel, doc

tors, 10; others, 316:

Missouri.......................

10. Headquarters, 509 Keith Plaza Building, Minneapolis (personnel,

doctors, 19; others, 367):

Minnesota....

North Dakota..
South Dakota..

Montana....
11. Headquarters, United States National Bank Building. Denver

(personnel, doctors, 11; others, 301):

Colorado......
Utah.
New Mexico

Wyoming....
12. Headquarters, 237 Flood Building, San Francisco (personnel, doc-

tors, 9; others, 298):

California...

13. Headquarters, 614 Arcade Building, Teattle (personnel, doctors, 19;

others, 207):
Washington

Spokane....
Tacoma....

Portland.... Oregon.... Idaho.....

| Pocatello.....

Number of suboffices organized in each State and District and the approximate numter

of employees, including both whole and part time, as of Sept. 1, 1921-Continuea.

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14. Headquarters, North Akard and Pacific Avenues, Dallas (person

nel, doctors, 8: others, 293):
Texas..

Fi Paso.....
1 Houston.....

San Antonio...
Te arkana..
Fort Worth...

Waco.........
Oklahoma

Oklahoma City ..

Tulsa.........
Arkansss....

Fort Smith...
Little Rock...

The CHAIRMAN. Suppose you furnish a statement showing how many men are employed in each suboffice, and how much each suboffice costs.

Col. FORBES. The suboffice was only created by the terms of the Sweet bill, and it is now in process of organization.

Mr. Wood. How long does that last?
Col. FORBES. Until 1926.

The CHAIRMAN. We want to know about how much each one will cost.

Col. FORBES. We have not operated any of them long enough to give a definite answer as to the cost, but we will give the approximate cost.

The CHAIRMAX. You are counting on establishing those offices, and you must have some system in mind ?

Col. FORBES. There is this to be considered, that in the establishment of these suboffices we should have a similar layout to that in the district offices-that is, we should have a dental clinic and, perhaps, hydrotherapy in some cases. Where it is necessary to establish that class of suboffices, it will cost more than another class of suboffices where those things are not necessary, due to the fact that they are in closer proximity to regional offices where they can go and get treatment, remembering that every time a man travels from his home to a suboffice or to a regional office the Government must pay his expense. A careful survey will have to be made before extensive equipment is installed. It will take time to do this in a businesslike manner.

The CHAIRMAX. What is the limit of the authority of the manager of the suboffice, or what is he allowed to do?

Col. FORBES. He can do everything except adjudicate claims. The claims are adjudicated in the district offices.

The CHAIRMAN. He can send a man to the hospital!

Col. FORBES. Yes, sir; every man is entitled to hospitalization upon application.

* The CHAIRMAX. Enumerate the things that he can do.
- Col. FORBES. He gathers information primarily, and forwards it
to the district offices where the claims are settled.

The CHAIRMAX. He is a field man?
Col. FORBES. Yes, sir; he is a field man.

The CHAIRMAN. He accumulates information for transmission to the district office ?

Col. FORBES. Yes, sir; and he can give medical treatment through the clinic, or he can give local treatment.

The CHAIRMAN. He can employ doctors ?
Col. FORBES. No, sir; they are appointed by the district managers.

EMPLOYMENT OF DOCTORS-RATES OF PAY.

The CHAIRMAN. In the employment of doctors, what is the practice as to compensation ?

Col. Forbes. Most of the doctors are either Public Health Service doctors or civil-service doctors, except the specialists who are employed. Those are specialists in the treatment of the eye, nose, and throat.

The CHAIRMAN. For doctors of the Public Health Service, you must apply to them?

Col. FORBES. Yes, sir; they assign them to us.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you appoint any doctors on your own account?
Col. FORBES. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. How many have you?
Col. FORBES. We have about 100 in the district offices.
The CHAIRMAN. How many have you in the United States ?

Mr. ROUTSONG. There were 1,452 doctors on the pay rolls of the Veterans' Bureau on September 1.

The CHAIRMAN. You appoint the doctors under what conditions, or what are they required to do? ..

Col. FORBES. The doctors with a civil-service status or doctors of the Public Health Service are appointed on the recommendation of the assistant director in charge of the medical division. The director does not attemp to appoint any doctor.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean that the division managers appoint them?

Col. Forbes. No, sir; the assistant director in charge of the medical division.

Mr. GALLIVAN. You do not make the selections yourself?

Col. FORBES. No, sir; I do not appoint them until the medical division examines them and looks into their history.

The CHAIRMAN. What rate of compensation do we pay doctors appointed in the way you have stated ?

Col. FORBES. The highest pay for a doctor is $6,000.
The CHAIRMAN. Do they pay that for a year of service?

Col. FORBES. Yes, sir; by the year. There are some part-time doctors who are paid as low as $700 a year.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not pay them by the case ?
Col. FORBES. Some of them, yes, sir—that is, for examinations.

The CHAIRMAN. None of them are paid by fees, or so much per examination ?

Col. FORBES. Yes, sir; in local communities they are.

The CHAIRMAN. How much do you pay them for a local examination?

Col. Forbes. I think the examination fee is $5.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there an aggregate amount paid for so many examinations?

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