List of attending specialists on duty at Public Health Service hospitals, by station, paid out of appropriation " Medical and hospital services"-Continued. Hospital. Name. Specialty. Salary. Fort McHenry, Md., P. H. S. No. 56.... Bagley, Chas., jr. Knoxville, Iowa, P. H. S. No. 57. New Orleans, La., P. H. S. No. 58. Fox Hills, N. Y., P. H. S. No. 61. Augusta, Ga., P. H. S. No. 62. St. Paul, Minn., P. H. S. No. 65.. Dunott, Daniel Z. Avery, Jacob F Grave, Floyd.. 1.800 Brown, Paul F. Corbett, J. Frank. ..do. 3,000 Curtain, John F. Giessler, Paul F.. Mann, A. F Piper, La rence P. O'Deneal, E. P. None on duty. Nevmann, Clarence A.. N. P. 1,800 None on duty. Walla Walla, Wash.. North Little Rock, Ark. Portland, Oreg. .do.. ..do.. List of attending specialists on duty at dispensaries and clinics paid from the appropriation List of attending specialists on duty at second and third class relief stations paid from the appropriation "Medical and hospital services." List of attending specialists on duty at marine hospitals, by station. Paid out of U. S. Public Health Service appropriation "Pay of personnel.'' Paid out of U. S. List of attending specialists on duty at marine hospitals, by station. List of attending specialists on duty at Public Health Service hospitals, by station, paid out of appropriation "Pay of personnel." List of attending specialists on duty at second and third class relief stations paid out of appropriation "Pay of personnel. List of attending specialists on duty at second and third class relief stations paid out of apppropriation Pay of personnel "—Continued. Hospital. 66 The CHAIRMAN. We ought to know, and you ought to know when you come here. What kind of a contract do you make with these people? Do you make a flat rate or do you allow them to charge whatever they please? Dr. LAVINDER. Our method of employing attending specialists is on a salary basis, depending on the amount of work they do, and that is checked up regularly. The CHAIRMAN. What is the rate of the salary and how do you calculate it? Dr. LAVINDER. It may run anywhere from $25 a month up to $300 or $400 a month. The CHAIRMAN. You would have to have a lot of them at $25 to spend $725,000. Dr. LAVINDER. We have many doctors, yes. I am sorry, Mr. Madden, that I can not give you more accurate information, but I did not know when I was called here that it was in relation to this matter. I thought it was in relation to another matter and so I am totally unprepared, but I can supply you with that data. The CHAIRMAN. Somebody ought to be able to supply the information upon which these figures are based. Mr. SISSON. Who made the estimate for this deficiency? Col. FORBES. This estimate was made by our own statistician, and we have been in consultation with the Public Health Service, trying to get from the Public Health Service what has been done with the money allotted to them by the bureau. After several efforts we finally did get a great deal of information from the Public Health Service. Perhaps their method of bookkeeping is different than ours, but Mr. SISSON (interposing). The reason I asked that question is this: There are certain figures that the chairman is now asking about and somebody connected with the Government ought to be responsible for the amount of money which finally finds its way into the figures which you here submit. Col. FORBES. We are responsible for these figures and we can give you an explanation of them. Mr. SISSON. That is true, but you got them from somebody else. Col. FORBES. We had to get them from somebody else. Mr. SISSON. And the people who made the estimate ought to have the information upon which the estimate was based. The CHAIRMAN. You say you have had trouble in getting information from the Public Health Service as to the expenditure of the money? Col. FORBES. Well, when I say that, I mean that when I first reviewed all of these figures, I asked Mr. Routsong to get them itemized and complete so that we might know what was done with the amounts allotted. The first statements I received were in lump sums for various purposes, but did not contain the application of those sums, so I sent back to the Public Health Service on two or three different occasions for an itemized statement of the expenditures so that we might make these requests for appropriations and find unit costs for everything that was being done in the bureau and the Public Health Service. About a week ago the Public Health Service sent two young men down to us and we discussed with them what was required in order to make these statements complete and correct and so that they might be better understood, and these men are now engaged in doing that. We showed the Public Health Service what we are doing in order to arrive at these figures. The CHAIRMAN. Did you not have all of this detailed information. when you went to the budget officer with a request for an appropriation? Col. FORBES. The same as is contained here. The CHAIRMAN. And that is all? Col. FORBES. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. You had no details? Col. FORBES. No, sir; other than what we worked up ourselves. Mr. KELLEY. What showing did he require of you before he submitted these figures to us? Col. FORBES. In the first instance, as I remember, I went over with the finance officer and we reduced that budget about $25,000,000. Is that correct? Mr. ROUTSONG. $27,000,000. Col. FORBES. And there was a further reduction made just before coming up here. Mr. KELLEY. We are talking about Gen. Dawes's department. Col. FORBES. That is what I am talking about. Before coming up here a representative of the budget came over with the suggestion of a further reduction of $12,000,000 from our estimates. Inasmuch as this request came at a late hour before coming here it was impossible for me to say arbitrarily, "Yes, reduce it $12,000,000, ' because these figures were made up on the data we had on hand in the bureau and the data we got from the Public Health Service. Mr. KELLEY. What detailed figures did you submit to the Budget Commissioner? Col. FORBES. Just what appears here. Mr. ROUTSONG. I might say that the expenditure last year under this item was $716,339.58, as reported to us by the Public Health Service. We estimated that the expenditure for that item this year would be approximately the same, and considering that the Sweet bill will doubtless increase our hospitalization and all of our medical service, we allowed the figures to stand just as they were reported to us. The CHAIRMAN. Do you want me to tell you what I would have done if I were going to make up one of these items? I would have |