Capt. BAZIRE. I meant that the land in the rifle range was worth $5 or $10.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it essential that you should have the land? Capt. BAZIRE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. For what purpose?

Capt. BAZIRE. It will destroy the use of the camp if we do not acquire this land as the Government owns the land all around it. The largest part of the unacquired land is used as a rifle range and unless purchased will not only isolate a large area of land already owned by the Government from the main camp, but the isolated part will be in small detached parcels.

The CHAIRMAN. Was this land occupied by the department during

the war?

Capt. BAZIRE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. All of this land which it is proposed to purchase? Gen. CARSON. Yes, sir; and Camp Dix is one of the permanent divisional camps.

The CHAIRMAN. And you had possession of this 2.000 acres of land during the war?

Gen. CARSON. Yes, sir; we have had possession and use of it ever since the camp was established.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you leasing it now?

Gen. CARSON. No: this is under condemnation; and when those proceedings were started that gave us possession, and we have paid no rent money since the proceedings were instituted.

The CHAIRMAN. Has any part of the purchase price been paid on it?

Gen. CARSON. No; not on these particular tracts.

Mr. BYRNS. I suppose the court is likely to assess rent in the suit?

Capt. BAZIRE. It has been customary to add interest from the date of the filing of the condemnation proceedings in lieu of rent.

CAMP CUSTER.

Mr. ANTHONY. Camp Custer is in Michigan. That camp has been abandoned, has it not?

Gen. CARSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. ANTHONY. What do you propose to buy there and why? Gen. CARSON. Only one parcel of 40 acres, and that is a question of title. We had to institute proceedings to clear the title, and before we could get that done and pay the money this limitation caused us to turn the money back into the Treasury, and this is necessary in order to complete the title.

The CHAIRMAN. Has there been any policy adopted about the use of this land after you get the title?

Gen. CARSON. I think not at Camp Custer, sir, except we are leasing it to various residents of that locality for farming purposes. Mr. ANTHONY. Have the buildings been sold there?

Gen. CARSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. ANTHONY. So all the Government has there is the bare land? Gen. CARSON. Yes, sir; the railroad spur connecting the camp with the main line is on this tract of 40 acres, and that is another reason why we should have it..

Mr. ANTHONY. What is the total amount involved there?
Gen. CARSON. $2.700.

CAMP JACKSON.

Mr. ANTHONY. What is involved at Camp Jackson, in South Carolina? Has that camp been abandoned?

Gen. CARSON. No, sir.

Mr. ANTHONY. Is that a divisional camp?

Gen. CARSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that one of the camps that has been turned over to the Veterans' Bureau?

Gen. CARSON. No, sir. At Camp Jackson the amount involved is 2,802 acres, and the amount of money we estimate necessary to cover these cases-that is, the decisions of the court, etc.-is $75,000, or an average of $26.76 per acre, and that is necessary, as shown by this map, to really protect the other parts of the camp which the Government has already acquired.

Mr. ANTHONY. Are they a number of small tracts scattered all over the reservation?

Gen. CARSON. Yes, sir; all of these tracts represented by red rings are the tracts involved in the condemnation proceedings.

The CHAIRMAN. How many acres altogether are involved in that camp?

Gen. CARSON. There is a total of 20,876 acres, including this 2,802 acres, that we want the appropriation for in order to meet the decisions of the court.

Mr. ANTHONY. Is all of that land under condemnation now?

Capt. BAZIRE. Condemnation proceedings have been filed against all of them, and in the case of some of them there are now judgments pending by the commissioners. The court in that case appointed commissioners.

Mr. ANTHONY. And whether the Government continues to occupy the camp or abandons it would be immaterial, because in order to protect the land the Government already owns it would be necessary to acquire these parcels.

Gen. CARSON. That is precisely the situation.

Mr. ANTHONY. And that is the basis on which Congress previously gave them authority to proceed with this condemnation.

Gen. CARSON. If the court proceedings could have been pushed through a little more expeditiously so that they would have all been finished prior to the 30th of last June, all of these cases would have been settled and we would not have to ask for this appropriation, which is really a reappropriation of a part of the money we have turned in.

Mr. ANTHONY. Are you sure that Congress has to appropriate the money before you can continue with your proceedings?

Gen. CARSON. Yes, sir. We turned back to the Treasury last June a total of something like $580,000 which lapsed on account of the 2-year limitation on its availability. The total of this, as shown by the estimate here is $408,000. If these cases could have been closed up prior to last June, the money was there and they would have been settled and we would not have to ask for this appropriation

CAMP LEE.

Mr. ANTHONY. Camp Lee is in Virginia, and that camp has been abandoned, has it not?

Gen. CARSON. Yes, sir; that is a similar case.

Mr. ANTHONY. How much money do you want to expend there and for what purpose?

Gen. CARSON. 973 acres, $15,000.

Mr. ANTHONY. What is the situation there?

Gen. CARSON. The matter is in court there.

Mr. ANTHONY. And it is the same class of land?

Gen. CARSON. Yes, sir; it is right in the middle of the camp and is land on which improvements have been made, and it is. a question of dispute with the owner as to its value.

Mr. ANTHONY. Has Camp Lee been salvaged?

Gen. CARSON. Not yet; it is in process of being salvaged, but is not yet finished.

LOCATION, ACREAGE, AND COST OF CAMPS.

The CHAIRMAN. General, will you be kind enough to give us the location of each one of these camps, separately, the acreage in each camp, the amount of land already purchased, and the total cost of the purchase and the average cost per acre; also the amount asked here and the number of acres and the total cost per acre?

Gen. CARSON. Yes: I will submit that statement for the record.

Mr. CANNON. Where are these camps located?

Gen. CARSON. There are six camps involved here: Camp Grant, Ill.; Camp Custer, Mich.; Camp Devens, Mass.; Camp Dix, N. J.; Camp Lee, Va.; and Camp Jackson, S. C.

Mr. CANNON. You are now buying up a lot of additional land or condemning a lot of additional land?

Gen. CARSON. Pardon me, we have already condemned, and this is merely to enable us to complete an agreement which was made by the authorized officials of the Government. To refuse to pay for the land now would be to repudiate those contracts.

Mr. CANNON. You spoke about condemnation proceedings

Gen. CARSON. Having been instituted two years ago in many

cases.

Mr. CANNON. Could they not be dismissed? Gen. CARSON. Then we would be in the position of trespassers and be opened to claims for heavy damages.

Mr. CANNON. What use have we for this land? What are you using it for now in New Jersey and South Carolina?

Gen. CARSON. Camp Dix, N. J., is a divisional camp in active use. Camp Jackson in South Carolina is also in active use.

Mr. CANNON. In use for what purpose?

Gen. CARSON. For divisional troops.

Mr. CANNON. You are talking now to a layman; just what do you mean by divisional troops-troops that are using it all the time or just a part of the time?

Gen. CARSON. They are located there and live there, and this division of troops may be anywhere from 15,000 to 18,000 individuals. Mr. CANNON. When was this camp acquired?

Gen. CARSON. Camp Dix was established in 1917.

Mr. CANNON. Now then, go down to South Carolina; when was that acquired?

Gen. CARSON. About the same time, sir. I am speaking now of when the camp was originally established during the war. At first the ground was leased, and later on the War Department decided it would be well to acquire it by purchase, and that was done in May or. June of 1919. I am speaking from the records now, because I was elsewhere at that time. In many cases the owners agreed to accept the price and the money was paid and the United States has title, and where the price could not be agreed upon condemnation proceedings were instituted.

Mr. CANNON. What are you using the camp in South Carolina for now?

Gen. CARSON. At Camp Jackson there are troops stationed, but just how many there are at the moment I can not tell you because I am not up to date on that.

Mr. CANNON. Are there any other places where troops are stationed?

Gen. CARSON. Yes, sir. There are no troops at Camp Custer, because the buildings have been sold. We have the land and we want to complete the purchase of certain portions of the land in order to protect the Government against damage suits, which will otherwise inevitably result.

SALE AND LEASE OF CAMPS.

Mr. CANNON. Have you ever considered the question of selling this land?

Gen. CARSON. We can not sell the land without the authority of Congress.

Mr. CANNON. Have you ever recommended that?

Gen. CARSON. I believe that has not yet been requested.

Mr. CANNON. Has it been discussed?

Gen. CARSON. That is a matter for the Secretary of War, sir.

Mr. ANTHONY. As a matter of fact it is being considered now by a subcommittee of Military Affairs Committee of the House, is it not-the mater of selling these lands?

Gen. CARSON. The lands that are not necessary; yes, sir. The Secretary of War has advised Congress of a number of pieces of real estate formerly owned by the War Department that are not necessary. I have not a list with me and I can not give it from

memory.

Mr. CANNON. What does it cost you to protect and care for these camps that are not now occupied; you are not farming them, are you! Gen. CARSON. At some of the camps where the buildings have been removed and the land is not being required we are leasing it to the farmers out there. Camp Custer has been almost entirely leased. Mr. CANNON. How big a camp is that?

Gen. CARSON. Custer has about 8,600 acres.

SALVAGE OF BUILDINGS.

Mr. ANTHONY. The buildings on the camps that have been abandoned have been salvaged, have they not?

Gen. CARSON. Not entirely, sir. We have not completed the salvage work.

Mr. ANTHONY. What camps remain that you have not salvaged? Gen. CARSON. Camp Lee, for example. Camp Lee is the only one that has been actually vacated that we have not completed that I can now recall. The others are in process of being evacuated-like Camp Devens is to be evacuated later on, and also Camp Jackson, Camp Pike, and Camp Funston, which is on the military reservation at Fort Riley.

Mr. ANTHONY. That has been salvaged.

The CHAIRMAN. Before we could sell the land even if we were to decide to sell it we would have to acquire these various pieces of land?

Gen. CARSON. Yes; otherwise we could not give title.

CONDEMNATION PROCEEDINGS.

The CHAIRMAN. How long do you anticipate it will take to complete these condemnation proceedings?

Gen. CARSON. They ought to be completed this fall, should they not?

Capt. BAZIRE. They should be; yes, sir. I would like to explain about that.

Gen. CARSON. Capt. Bazire is the officer who has been looking after the details of this matter and is in closer touch with it than I am.

Capt. BAZIRE. I would like to explain the embarrassment which has been occasioned at certain times by not having the funds available. The defense would try to have the case thrown out of court for the reason that we had no funds. We have overcome that so far, but in any case that turns up we are apt to have the same question arise and we may have a judge who will throw us out of court. The CHAIRMAN. What would happen if that was done?

Capt. BAZIRE. We would be in the position of trespassing, as the general has suggested, and the case would be thrown out of court. and the condemnation proceedings would be ended. In that ease, if we wanted to acquire the land we could not institute new condemna