Admiral COONTZ. That is very true.

Mr. KELLEY. We find that for three months you used 1,208,000 barrels of oil on the destroyers, which would take almost $15,000,000 out of your appropriation just for the destroyers alone, if you keep on at the rate used the first three months.

Admiral CooNTZ. We estimate, of course, a very great expense in searching for the lost ship. That accounts for a great deal of it, and as to the reserve destroyers, as soon as the bill passed and we could get down to normal here, we cut them down and sent them back to Charleston and put them on a very low allowance. We have carried out the scheme as to saving money, and I venture to say that at least 75 per cent of the appropriations made for last year will turn in unexpended balances. Of course, this should be taken into consideration in providing fuel and transportation.

Mr. KELLEY. You see it swamps you to spend so much for oil on the destroyers. That was a very grave mistake.

Admiral CooNTZ. They have been giving us $10,000,000 for fuel, Mr. Chairman, for several years back, with a deficiency bill coming in of $26,000,000, such things as that.

Mr. KELLEY. But this time there could not have been any misapprehension as to the intent of Congress.

Admiral COONTZ. This time there was no misunderstanding as to the inadequacy of the appropriation, but we tried to do all we could to get along with it. We did not have a dollar to waste; our necessities were tremendously great. We had to press for economy even to the point of being a little offensive. There was never any misunderstanding as to whether the amount of money you gave us would cover it.

The CHAIRMAN. You are talking about war times?

Admiral CooNTZ. I am talking about since the war.

The CHAIRMAN. Before the war your total appropriation for fuel was only $5,000,000?

Admiral CoONTZ. Yes, sir. I am talking about since the war. It is an abuse which exists. Moreover, we have types of ships and numbers of ships which we did not have before the war, and our dollar is not worth so much.

REMAINING WITHIN APPROPRIATION.

The CHAIRMAN. We do not intend to allow it to exist any longer, and I would like to have you take notice that I mean what I say. Admiral COONTZ. We have no objection whatever.

The CHAIRMAN. If you do not live within it or close to it we will shut the appropriation off and then we will see who is going to be blamed for it.

Admiral POTTER. The total amount for the battleships for the first quarter is only 364,014 barrels.

Mr. KELLEY. How many oil-burning battleships have you had in commission?

Admiral COONTZ. Ten oil burners, and eight coal and oil burners, which burn little oil.

Mr. KELLEY. And during the three months you used--
Admiral POTTER (interposing). 364,014 barrels.

Mr. KELLEY. As against 1,208,333 barrels for your destroyers?

Admiral POTTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. KELLEY. So you see your destroyer leak is the place on which you want to get your eyes.

We

Admiral CooNTZ. The destroyer leak has been stopped, but, as I said, a great deal of that was on account of an errand of mercy. scoured the Pacific in an endeavor to find a vessel with 37 men on board.

APPROPRIATION BALANCE.

Mr. KELLEY. How much money have you left?
Admiral POTTER. Out of the appropriation?

Mr. KELLEY. Yes.

Admiral POTTER. You mean actual money if you do not allow us this amount?

Mr. KELLEY. Yes.

Admiral POTTER. We have an indicated balance available, I should say, of $5,211,147.29.

Mr. KELLEY. You have used up over $12,000,000 in three months. Admiral POTTER. $12,288,000.

Mr. KELLEY. That is going at the rate beyond what you asked for in your wildest dreams, Admiral.

Admiral POTTER. This is for four months.

Mr. KELLEY. Then, it is not quite so bad.

Admiral COONTZ. It is not quite so bad, because we are not spending anywhere near that sum now; as soon as we got the returns from July we came down.

FUEL ALLOWANCES.

Mr. KELLEY. Do you not really think the way out of it is to apportion the oil for your ships?

Admiral CooNTZ. I think it is, Mr. Kelley. That is what we have done.

Mr. KELLEY. Let me elaborate on that a little bit. Of course, the commander of a ship has more or less latitude, I suppose, as to how much steaming he shall do; necessarily you leave the ship to him, and unless you do put some kind of a limitation on the amount he uses he has no notion of what other ships are using or what your total necessities are and without any design he is apt to go beyond his share of the expenditure and not know that the Navy as a whole is going beyond the appropriation.

Admiral COONTZ. Mr. Kelley, that is exactly the way we do it. Every ship that is on a cruise is under a commander in chief, and all ships have been since the 1st day of August, and as soon as the bill passed and we realized the small amount given we cut them all down; we sent the destroyers back and tied them up. Outside of that big expense on the Pacific, and on occasions when we have had to send ships at the request of the State Department, they are under an allowance; each commander in chief allocates what they can have. The four months about which you have heard a record can not be considered as to what the year will be, because most drastic economies have been made in that line as well as in every other line.

Mr. KELLEY. How many destroyers do you send with the big ships for maneuvering?

Admiral CooNTZ. Nineteen is the plan.

Mr. KELLEY. So that your expense for maneuvering is not great, is it?

Admiral COONTZ. No, sir. There are 64 active destroyers, I think; 18 in China, 19 in the Pacific, 19 on this coast, and 8 in the Near East.

MANEUVER FULL REQUIREMENT.

Mr. KELLEY. On how many barrels of oil do you think you can conduct the maneuvers? What will be your total expense for the three or four months you will be down there with those essential ships? Admiral CooNTZ. I will have to figure on that.

Mr. KELLEY. If you took what money you have left and carefully allocated it to the ships you really want to maneuver and cut everybody else down, you could get along very well.

Admiral COONTZ. Of course, if we did not get the money we would simply have to tie them up.

Admiral POTTER. Commander Cobey just reminds me that it will take 1,260,000 barrels of oil for the maneuvers.

Mr. KELLEY. That would be something over $3,000,000 at $2.74 a barrel, and it would leave you something over $2,000,000 of your $5,500,000 for other ships.

Admiral COONTZ. The present estimate is about $1,900,000, as the oil will probably be taken from the west coast.

FUEL OIL CONSUMPTION OF EAGLE BOATS.

Mr. KELLEY. Take the Eagle boats. Can you give me the amount of oil that has been used by the Eagle boats in the first three months? Admiral POTTER. Yes, sir; 94,686 barrels, but two-thirds of that is an estimate; 24,686 barrels is the actual amount, while the other is an estimate.

Mr. KELLEY. That would be at what rate per year?
The CHAIRMAN. It would be practically 400,000.

Mr. KELLEY. Which would be $1,200,000 for oil for the Eagle boats, at the rate used the first three months.

Mr. ANTHONY. Is that oil or gasoline?

Mr. KELLEY. This is oil for the Eagle boats.

Mr. ANTHONY. I thought they were electrically propelled boats. Mr. KELLEY. No; they have oil-burning engines. Your policy toward the end would probably be to lay them up completely. Admiral COONTZ. It would be the policy, and that policy will be carried out to a greater extent since we have done away with the

reserves.

Mr. KELLEY. That is a tremendous amount of oil just for those boats that have so little military value.

Admiral CoONTZ. It is.

Mr. KELLEY. That is particularly true when you stop to think that oil and fuel only cost $5,000,000 before the war and that you are spending at the rate of over $1,000,000 for these little Eagle boats alone.

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Admiral CooNTZ. We have not just desired to spend it, but spent it because we had the reserves and the law requires us to give them training.

FUEL OIL CONSUMPTION OF MINING VESSELS.

Mr. KELLEY. Take the mine layers: How much oil have you used for the mine layers?

Admiral PoTTER. We have used 20,141 barrels at a value of $51,000.

Mr. KELLEY. Are you sure you have the right figures for the mine layers?

Admiral POTTER. That does not include the mine sweepers.

Mr. KELLEY. How much for them, also?

Admiral POTTER. For the mine-sweepers, 152,097 barrels.
Mr. KELLEY. Just give me those figures again.

Admiral POTTER. The mine sweepers

Mr. KELLEY (interposing). And layers; put them together.

Admiral POTTER. One hundred and seventy two thousand two hundred and thirty-eight, and then for the year that would make 688,952, mine layers and sweepers together.

Mr. KELLEY. You do not intend to use those to that extent, do you, Admiral? That rate would require over $2,000,000 for the year for fuel for the mine sweepers and layers.

Admiral COONTZ. Not to that great extent, sir; but they require training, too.

The CHAIRMAN. That would mean over $2,000,000?

Mr. KELLEY. For the year?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Admiral COONTZ. Naturally, we will cut down greatly on that.

DESTROYERS IN RESERVE.

Mr. KELLEY. Where are the reserve destroyers kept now, or where were they kept during the first three months?

Admiral COONTZ. They were based on Newport, R. I., those on the eastern side, and at San Diego, Calif., on the western side. There are 18 in China, 19 with the Atlantic Fleet, 19 in the Pacific, and we still have 8 in the Black Sea. Our Government practically has charge of the Black Sea.

Mr. KELLEY. That would leave a couple of hundred in reserve? Admiral CoONTZ. Yes; about that.

Mr. KELLEY. Do you not have any reserve destroyers at Hampton Roads?

Admiral COONTZ. No, sir; I do not think there is one.

Mr. ANTHONY. I visited the harbor at Newport and the New York Harbor this summer, and in each harbor I noticed great fleets of destroyers tied up four abreast.

Admiral CooNTZ. Yes, sir. That is the way it is done.

Mr. ANTHONY. How do you maintan them-with the crews on them and the fires burning in all of them?

Admiral COONTZ. No, sir; we maintain them with reduced crews. They remained in Charleston eight months: then they went to Newport, stopping at New York, and remained there all summer with reduced crews, and with a combination of crews they took one of

them out from time to time and put them through their drills and paces, and when they are in port they tie up. When we have four there the heating apparatus on one is kept going, and that carries on the lighting and electricity for all four.

Mr. ANTHONY. Is it not possible to take your surpus destroyers and lay them up absolutely?

Admiral CooNTZ. Not without a great loss of money, on account of the way their engines and machinery would go to pieces; they are practically new, and in the long run it pays to put a very small number of men on board and keep everything in shape, both material and personnel, in so far as training can be carried out with reduced complements.

Mr. KELLEY. Have you the figures showing the amount of oil used on any of the destroyers in reserve?

Admiral POTTER. On specific vessels, sir?

Mr. KELLEY. Well, in groups.

Admiral POTTER. One hundred reserve destroyers basing on Newport during the months of June, July, August, and September— that throws you back into a month of the preceding year-consumed 367,097 barrels of oil.

Mr. KELLEY. To use so great an amount of oil they must have been in full commission, Admiral.

Admiral COONTZ. No, sir; but they exercised at gunnery and maneuvers, which is necessary training and most advantageously carried out during these months.

Mr. KELLEY. How many barrels did you say?

Admiral POTTER. Three hundred and sixty-seven thousand and ninety-seven.

Mr. KELLEY. That would be about 1,500,000 barrels a year for 100 destroyers, and if you include the other 100 on the other coast, at $3 a barrel, that would be almost $10,000,000 for fuel for destroyers in reserve for a year.

The CHAIRMAN. Three million barrels a year for the two groups. Mr. KELLEY. And at $3 a barrel that would be over $9,000,000 for the destroyers in reserve.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; for 200.

Admiral COONTZ. There is something the matter with those figures, gentlemen. We would not have had the money to spend. Those figures do not apply all the year around, nor to both coasts.

Mr. KELLEY. They have been running away with you entirely, Admiral.

Admiral COONTZ. The Pacific ones have been doing very little cruising; they do not have to go so far.

Mr. KELLEY. If it were needed for the destroyers in reserve in the Atlantic it would be fair to assume it would be needed to take care of them in the Pacific.

Admiral CooNTZ. The destroyers in the Atlantic would consume The destroyers in the Pacific do not use so much for they base on San Diego the entire year.

Mr. KELLEY. If you had known what was going on you never would have permitted 368,000 barrels to be used by the destroyers in reserve, would you?

The CHAIRMAN. By only 100.