$2,907.48. Therefore this activity is proceeding, by direction of the commission, with the work this year upon the basis of the work as it was actually being performed on the 30th day of June.

The commission considered whether or not it should attempt to curtail the work so as to fall within the $313,600 appropriation, as it did with the accounting work and the locomotive-inspection work. It decided in the case of the accounting work and locomotiveinspection work that it would curtail these activities to keep within the appropriation, but the commission felt that the Congress would not wish it to curtail this safety work, in view of the necessity for inspection work for the safety of the traveling public. In view of that fact, it waived its monthly allotment under the $313,600 and allowed the work to proceed during this year on the basis of what it was last year.

The CHAIRMAN. If the amount requested is not allowed, what would be the effect?

Mr. MCGINTY. Well, the effect would be that perhaps there would be less compliance with our safety requirements, and there would be more accidents, more loss of limb, and more deaths. In other words, we would have to curtail our activities in the matter of seeing that the carriers actually perform properly this kind of work.

The CHAIRMAN. Do not the carriers comply with the orders of the commission?

Mr. McGINTY. The carriers for the most part wish to comply with every order we make, but sometimes we find cars in service in a condition that will cause an accident if permitted to remain in service or that may cause a wreck: Therefore, we have 42 safety-appliance inspectors who are making inspections daily for the purpose of seeing that the proper work is done by the carriers in keeping their equipment in compliance with the safety standards that the commission prescribes.

Mr. WOOD. Are not the carriers alive to the fact that every wreck they have costs the companies an untold amount of money in the way of damages?

Mr. MCGINTY. That goes back to your statement of a few moments ago. The carrier may appreciate that, but some of the men who are responsible for the work may not appreciate it. Some may not care whether the carriers are put to the expense or not.

Mr. Wood. Do they not have an inspection service of their own? They have car inspectors, do they not?

Mr. McGINTY. Yes, sir; they have inspectors.

Mr. Wood. It occurs to me that we are getting too many inspectors. We have inspectors of every sort, with inspectors of inspectors. We have so many that we do not know where we are in this inspection. business. It strikes me that if there is anybody that ought to be primarily interested in keeping the rolling stock in good repair it would be the carriers themselves who have inspectors for this purpose. Mr. McGINTY. I think the traveling public and the employees of the carriers were responsible for the enactment of these safety laws. Mr. ANTHONY. When you issue an order to a railroad company to install certain safety devices, is there any penalty attached to the disobeying of that order, or are you compelled to put inspectors on the road to see that they carry out the orders?

Mr. MCGINTY. Yes, sir; a penalty of $100 for each violation to be recovered in a suit to be brought by the United States district attorney in the district court of the United States having jusirdiction in the locality where such violation shall have been committed.

Mr. ANTHONY. Why would it not be better to enforce the penalties for nonobservance rather than keep the force of inspectors on the trail?

Mr. MCGINTY. We would never know that there was nonobserv

ance.

Mr. ANTHONY. Do you not think that there would be complaints from the public or from the trainmen?

Mr. MCGINTY. I am afraid that the complaints would come in after the accident, because no one would ever notice a defect in a car that appeared to be in good running condition.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you please tell us how you have apportioned this $313,600, if you have apportioned it?

Mr. MCGINTY. We have not apportioned it, Mr. Chairman, except as I have attempted to explain with reference to the general appropriation, that we have made out a list of our expenditures. We have done that on the basis of $350,000.

The CHAIRMAN. You have not attempted from the start to keep within the $313,600 at all?

Mr. McGINTY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You never took that into consideration at all, but ignored it?

Mr. MCGINTY. The Commission did consider it quite a while in conference and decided that in respect to safety it should not attempt to curtail this activity.

The CHAIRMAN. The $36,400, which you request, according to the language employed here, indicates that it is not all to be used for the employment of inspectors in making investigations in respect to block-signal and train-control systems and appliances intended to promote the safety of railway operations?

Mr. MCGINTY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The new language says, "and to take care of additional duties placed upon the commission by the transportation act, 1920." What are those additional duties?

Mr. MCGINTY. Section 26 of the act is very specific in stating:

That the commission may, after investigation, order any carrier by railroad subject to this act, within a time specified in the order, to install automatic train-stop or train-control devices or other safety devices, which comply with specifications and requirements prescribed by the commission, upon the whole or any part of its railroad, such order to be issued and published at least two years before the date specified for its fulfillment.

The commission has made some investigation under this section. It has not proceeded to the extent to which the section would indicate it should under ordinary circumstances. Because of the financial condition of the carriers, the commission has felt, I think, that it should not attempt to order carriers at the present time to go to the expense of installing such safety devices. It has felt, however. perhaps, that it should proceed with certain investigations and decide upon certain standards so that in the extension of lines or the construction of new lines the standards which the commission might recommend could be installed. Therefore, in our estimates for next

year, we are asking for an increase up to $380,000. The commission proposes, as I understand, to put the question up to you gentlemen to decide whether or not it should proceed with that work.

The CHAIRMAN. If they had put it up to us in this case there would not be any deficiency. They did not pay any attention to what we decided.

Mr. BYRNS. I notice that this estimate, $36,400, exactly represents the amount that Congress cut from the estimate submitted for this fiscal year?

Mr. MCGINTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BYRNS. Of course, Congress made that reduction in the estimates of the commission as well as in the estimates of other departments, and it cut them all thinking they would enter on an era of economy and attempt to reduce expense. If all the commissions and the departments of the Government would take the same view and come back here for deficiencies equal to the amounts of their estimates there would not be any reduction.

Mr. KELLEY. Please put into the record a statement of expenditures by classes for the year 1920. That seems to be the exact

amount of the appropriation for this year, $313,600?

Mr. MCGINTY. Yes, sir. I can give you that now.

Mr. KELLEY. Put that in the record so that we can see it.

Mr. MCGINTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. KELLEY. And in a parallel column the apportionment of the amount which you are asking for this year, $350,000.

$313,000 and you want $36,000 more?

Mr. MCGINTY. That is right.

You got

Mr. KELLEY. So that we can see just where the increases are that are to be charged up to the appropriation act of 1920.

Mr. MCGINTY. Last year's expenditures and those proposed for this year are as follows:

The CHAIRMAN. "For valuation of property of carriers," you ask $181.02. That is a deficiency for 1916, as I see it?

Mr. McGINTY. Yes, sir. There remained three outstanding bills against the Interstate Commerce Commission by the Chicago, Terre Haute & Southeastern Railroad Co. for handling I. C. C. car No. 42, in July and August, 1915, of $26; in September, 1915, of $34; and October, 1915, $37.02, making a total of $91.02, and one other bill from the St. Louis & Southwestern Co. of Texas for the use of a motor car in January, 1916, of $90, making a grand total of $181.02.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the motor car used for?

Mr. MCGINTY. Transporting our people up and down the line in valuation work.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a legitimate charge?

Mr. MCGINTY. Yes, sir.

Mr. SISSON. Why were they not presented earlier; is there any particular reason why they should have waited this long?

Mr. MCGINTY. This was at the beginning of field work and at that time we got in a lot of railroad people who had been experts in this line, but they did not know anything about the Government's requirements, the bills got lost and we never knew that they were in existence until after our appropriation had been turned back.

Mr. SISSON. Of course the appropriation has lapsed out of which these bills should have been paid?

Mr. McGINTY. Yes, sir; we turned back into the Treasury out of the 1916 appropriation $113,863.49. I talked to the Bureau of the. Budget, and I thought they were going to make some arrangement by which this $181.02 would be put back to our credit.

The CHAIRMAN. They have nothing to do with that.

Mr. MCGINTY. This is to pay bills which should have been paid away back in 1916.

Mr. SISSON. If the bills were lost, how could they get them O, K.'d by the people who contracted the obligations?

Mr. MCGINTY. We got them together and got them properly O. K.'d; they came to us in due order.

Mr. SISSON. Of course it is a little matter in the nature of a claim. Has the auditor passed on this account?

Mr. MCGINTY. It has not gone to the auditor.

The CHAIRMAN. Suppose we let them go to the auditor first.

. Mr. McGINTY. As I understand, we can not submit that to the auditor until we have the money.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you have paid the money out of the appropriation if the bills had been presented in due course?

Mr. MCGINTY. Yes, sir; out of the commission's appropriation, because we had an unexpended balance.

The CHAIRMAN. Was the claim presented before the unexpended balance went back into the Treasury?

Mr. MCGINTY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. If it had been, you would have paid it; but not having been, you did not have the money, and your only recourse was to come to Congress?

Mr. McGINTY. Yes, sir.

MONDAY, NOVEMBER 7, 1921.

SHIPPING BOARD.

STATEMENT OF MR. ELMER SCHLESINGER, GENERAL COUNSEL, UNITED STATES SHIPPING BOARD, AND VICE PRESIDENT EMERGENCY FLEET CORPORATION.

PURCHASE OF LAW BOOKS.

The CHAIRMAN. There has been submitted an item for the Shipping Board, "For the purchase of law books, fiscal year 1917, $1,316.05.' Please tell us about that.

Mr. SCHLESINGER. Mr. Chairman, those books were purchased, apparently, I should say, three years or thereabouts ago; I personally know nothing about the purchase of them.

The CHAIRMAN. They were law books?

Mr. SCHLESINGER. Yes, sir. As a matter of fact, we have a law library in our building that belongs to the Navy Department and we are using that law library now and are not buying any books in Washington for the Shipping Board or the Emergency Fleet Corporation. As I understand the law, neither the Shipping Board nor the Emergency Fleet Corporation have the power to purchase law books without a specific appropriation or specific authority therefor. The CHAIRMAN. But those books were purchased and the obligation exists?

Mr. SCHLESINGER. I suppose that is the case, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. GALLIVAN. Why were they not paid for?

Mt. KELLEY. The comptroller held the bill up, I suppose. Mr. SCHLESINGER. I know nothing about the purchase, except that the books are there in the library of the Shipping Board.

Mr. KELLEY. It may be that you did have authority and your appropriation was exhausted. You do not know what the facts are? Mr. SCHLESINGER. I will have to look up the facts and report to I knew nothing about the item until called here.

you.

The CHAIRMAN. Please submit a statement to us.
Mr. SCHLESINGER. Yes, sir; I shall be glad to do so.
Mr. BYRNS. Are they United States Reports?

Mr. SCHLESINGER. I presume that some of them are United States Reports and some the reporter systems, the Northeastern, Atlantic, and Pacific, etc.

Mr. BYRNS. You are not keeping them up?

Mr. SCHLESINGER. No, sir; because it is very expensive to maintain a law library and the Navy has one in our building.

Mr. BYRNS. How many thousands of dollars have you invested in the law library?

Mr. SCHLESINGER. I could not say. The present Shipping Board has purchased no law books. I should guess the investment in law books might be three or four thousand dollars.

The CHAIRMAN. Please look it up and see whether there was any authority?

Mr. SCHLESINGER. I will be glad to do that.