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Capt. Faris. I could not describe those exactly to you, but I will say that our officers went up where these ships are, went over the whole thing, and found, for instance, that they have a deckhouse providing for the officers who run the ships, but there are only about four such officers on a ship, and that is all they want of such officers as we call ship's officers, the officers who navigate the ship; but we need more quarters in order to run four or five surveying units that will always work from that ship, and consequently we want to extend the house that is on deck further aft in order to accommodate more officers.

The CHAIRMAN. When do you start these ships out?

Capt. Faris. We are going to start the ships out, if we get this money, as soon as we have these alterations made, and we ought to start those ships out before the 1st of July.

The ('HAIRMAN. Why do you need these structural alterations? Have you not plenty of living quarters for the men?

Capt. Faris. There are plenty of quarters for the men but we can not carry enough officers on them.

The CHAIRMAX. How many officers do you carry?
Capt. Faris. We would carry on these ships from 10 to 12 officers.
The CHAIRMAN. How many cabins are on each of these ships?
Capt. Faris. Only one, as I understand it.
The CHAIRMAN. Have you seen the ships yourself?
Capt. Faris. No; I have not personally seen them.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you not think it would be a good idea to see them before you come and ask an appropriation of $72,300 with which to make alterations?

Capt. Faris. But our officers who have charge of ships have seen them.

The CHAIRMAN. The trouble with those men is that they never stop to think about the Treasury: they only think about what they want. They paint the picture to their fancy and then say how much that picture will cost.

Capt. Faris. This is a very conservative estimate.

The CHAIRMAX. It may be a conservative estimate for what they are going to do, but it may not be a conservative estimate of what they ought to have.

('apt. Faris. It will require this money to make the ships what they should be, but the point is this: If we can not put enough officers on them so that we can operate them at full efficiency we are losing money all the time, because it requires a certain number of men to run ships of that size; I mean, in the engine room and on the deck. We want to carry enough officers on these ships to enable us to use several surveying parties, and if we can do that the overhead will be about the same: we want to make them so that they can run to their full capacity. For instance, we have the Surveyor now in Alaska, and she is a ship of about the same tonnage as these vessels.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the tonnage of these vessels?

Capt. Faris. Around 1,000 tons. It requires a ship of ałrout that size to stand the weather. If we did not have enough quarters on that ship except for about three or four officers we could only do a limited amount of surveying work, while if we could carry enough officers we could send out several launch parties from the ship anl

thus do a great deal more work; we could even put them on shore in temporary camps and supply them with food from this ship for a week or two.

The CHAIRMAN. How long will it take to use this money?

Capt. Faris. These alterations should be made in six weeks. These are all steel ships and it does not take very long to use $36,000 when working in metal.

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to see a picture of the ships and see how many cabins you have.

Capt. È Aris. I will see whether we have such a picture.
The CHAIRMAN. I would like to see what the cabin facilities are

now.

Capt. Faris. We have the plans in our office.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you should bring them here. I do not believe we should appropriate $72,000 without knowing some of the details, because that amount of money is quite a big fortune; it may not be in the total cost of the Government, but it is a big fortune for some things, and we have to deal with it on that basis. I think you had not better make any further argument about this thing until you bring us the plans of the ships and let us see what cabins they have. If you can supply us with that information we will be very glad to have you come before us tomorrow; we will let you know the exact time.

Capt. Faris. I will bring the plans and show what is there now and what we think ought to be there.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what we want.

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 16, 1922.

ACCOMMODATIONS FOR OFFICERS AND CREW.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you the plans!

Capt. Faris. Yes, sir. As the ships are built now they have only room for three officers, one of which is the engineer officer. As you know, the ships were built for naval purposes, as mine sweepers.

The CHAIRMAN. What are these, around here [indicating); all quarters?

Capt. Faris. Quarters. The other plan will show that better.

Mr. Sisson. Do they not have more men on a mine sweeper than you would have on the ship?

Capt. Faris. No, sir; 46 men and 4 officers.
The CHAIRMAN. Are these all officers' cabins here [indicating] ?
Capt. Faris. . Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. And that [indicating] is the place for the crew?
Capt. Faris. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. You have all of the space you need ?

Capt. Faris. Yes, sir: but it is not arranged in the right way. We are not going to make any great changes.

The CHAIRMAN. You are asking for $72,000?

Capt. Faris. That is for the two ships. This is the way the ship is now sindicating]. This is the officers' stateroom (indicating]; this is the officers' mess [indicating), and this is the crew's mess.

The CHAIRMAN. And this is the boiler trunk, whatever that is? Capt. Faris. That is an open space.

The CHAIRMAN. And here are the crew's quarters back here [indicating]!

Capt. Faris. Yes, sir.
• The CHAIRMAN. It seems to me that you have all the space

without any trouble.

Capt. Faris. That is what we want to do; we have to change the inside a little.

Mr. Sisson. Suppose the ship belonged to you privately, would you want to spend that amount of money on it?

Capt. Faris. If we had to put additional men on it.
The CHAIRMAN. What is the engine-room trunk?
Capt. Faris. That is just the room above.
The CHAIRMAN. That would still be open?

Capt. Faris. Yes, sir. This place [indicating] is just a shelter. and this is the towing engine for use (indicating].

The CHAIRMAN. The crew's quarters are above!
Capt. Faris. Yes, sir; just along the water line.
Mr. Sisson. Where is the proposed change?

The CHAIRMAN. Here is what they want. That is the officers' room [indicating] and that is the officers' mess sindicating].

Capt. FARIS. That is a very small place and only for 4 people, and we ought to have a place for 11 people. Mr. Sisson. How long is this ship?

Capt. Faris. 182 feet over all, a thousand-ton ship. The width of the ship is 32.4 feet outside.

The CHAIRMAN. You have a big broad beam.
Capt. FARIS. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. These rooms must be pretty good sized?
Capt. Faris. They have runways on each side of the ship.
The CHAIRMAN. The rooms are in the center?

Capt. Faris. Yes, sir. This sindicating] is the house that runs through the center.

The CHAIRMAN. And you have a gangway on both sides?
Capt. Faris. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sisson. There [indicating] is another pretty nice room.
The CHAIRMAN. The crews' mess must be back here [indicating].
Capt. Faris. We want to make this so as to accommodate 10 or 11.
The CHAIRMAN. And take out this partition [indicating] ?
Capt. Faris. Just rearrange it.

Mr. Sisson. How do you get 10 or 11 officers on a ship of that character?

Capt. Faris. We have one about that size now. We are going to send these vessels to Alaska as soon as we get them fixed and get them around. They will not go to Alaska this year but we will work them on the coast of California until the following spring and then send them to Alaska. Up there those ships should be most efficient. These are oil-burning vessels, the fuel is oil. We are going to send them to the west coast and bring one now on the west cost, a coalburner, to this coast.

The CHAIRMAN. You can buy oil for half on the west coast ?
Capt. FARIS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And coal is higher on the west coast than on the east coast ?

Capt. Faris. Coal is higher and oil is cheaper.

Mr. Sisson. How much work do you propose to do in the Alaskan waters, how much money will likely be given to you for that purpose?

Capt. Faris. I do not know. Mr. Sisson. I was wondering whether of necessity it would take $70,000 a ship?

The CHAIRMAN. $72,000 for two ships.
Capt. Faris. $36,000 each.

The CHAIRMAN. It looks like a large amount of money to remodel a few cabins on a ship.

Capt. Faris. These vessels are practically new. They were built, as I recall it, in 1918 and 1919. I do not know what the plans of the Navy are; it appears they may not use them for a long time. They are almost new vessels. They cost from $500,000 to $800,000 apiece"; I do not know the exact cost.

Mr. Sisson. What do you propose to do here?

Capt. Faris. Rearrange these berths [indicating] so that we can get in some more men that we need.

Mr. Sisson. In other words, that is a very inexpensive proposition?

Capt. Faris. Yes, sir; it is as inexpensive as we can make it. The whole plan of change contemplates the least expenditure. These are berths sindicating] which will be rearranged. This part [indicating] is not going to be changed.

The CHAIRMAN. You could not change that—that is, the boiler room, the engine room, and the space above?

Capt. Faris. We could build some things there, but we are not going to. Instead of having the crew down there [indicating] we are going to put them above [indicating], because we have to have some things of our own.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean the officers?

Capt. Faris. We find it is necessary to separate the living quarters of the chief petty officers from the seamen. We are going to fix that up for those people, besides having an ice plant and a place for a carpenter shop for whatever repairs that have to be made to boats, etc.

The CHAIRMAN. You can do a lot of work for $72,000 ?

Capt. Faris. We are doing this on two ships. These estimates were based upon figures which we got from one of the big shipbuilding companies last August, I think it was, when we were making up an estimate for two new ships.

Mr. Sisson. Do you expect to do this work yourself?

Capt. Faris. No; by contract. The Navy says that they want to furnish an estimate. We will let them, if they want to.

The CHAIRMAN. How many officers are you going to have on these ships?

Capt. Faris. Eleven.
The CHAIRMAN. And you intend to spend $36,000 ?
Capt. Faris. But we will have more men.
The CHAIRMAN. You have room for how many officers now?

Capt. Faris. Four.

The CHAIRMAN. That will be $36,000 to provide accommodations for seven officers?

(apt. Faris. We have got to do some things besides providing accommodations for the officers. We have got to have a place where we can have a drafting room. We will have to extend the quarters: we will have to extend them so that we can carry 10. The captain will have his quarters up here. [Indicating.]

Mr. Sisson. Mr. Chairman, if we have the matter somewhat in detail as to what was going to be done, we might give them those things absolutely essential or give them all.

PROPOSED ALTERATIONS.

The CHAIRMAN. You will find those items on page 53. Extension of present deck houses to provide quarters for more officers and construction of drafting room on both vessels, $14.910 each, $29,884). Alterations to crews and chief petty officers' quarters, both vessels. $950 each, $1,900. Remove towing and mine handling and ordnance equipment, both vessels, $520 each, $1,040. Alterations of deck winches and miscellaneous deck equipment and piping, both vessels. $1,550 each, $3,100. Why do you want to move them?

Capt. Faris. We have to put piping in the rooms-toilet room. etc.

The CHAIRMAN. Why move the winches?
Capt. Faris. We can not use those winches.
The CHAIRMAN. Yo do not have to use winches at all!

Capt. FARIS. We use winches for hoisting our boats on the upper deck, but they are not in the right place.

The CHAIRMAN. What difference does it make where they are?

(apt. Faris. For instance, we want to build on the top a drafting room, and some of those things are in the way.

The CHAIRMAN. Heavier ground tackle for anchoring in exposed places, both vessels, $3,600; $7,200. Why do you want heavier ground tackle for anchoring?

Capt. Faris. We want heavier anchors so they will hold the ships. They are not supplied with sufficiently heavy anchors now. Thesu boats heretofore in their use have not been anchored in such deep water or in such exposed places. We will have to anchor outside in the Pacific Ocean.

The CHAIRMAN. New boats, including alterations for stowage, both vessels, $5,950 each; $11.900. What are the new boats?

Capt. Faris. Additional boats to what they carry now.
The CHAIRMAN. You mean life boats?
Capt. Faris. Survey boats, which will be lifeboats also.

The CHAIRMAN. How much does it cost to build a lifeboat such as you would use?

Capt. Faris. I just saw the price of an ordinary whaleboat the other day, something like $850.

The CHAIRMAX. And you will build $5,950 worth for each ship?

Capt. Faris. We want another launch. Besides, it does not pay to have rowboats when surveying.

The CHAIRMAN. You are certainly going to make the boats palatial?

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