Capt. FARIS. There is nothing palatial about them.

The CHAIRMAN. New refrigeration plant, both vessels, $3,650 each; $7,300?

Capt. FARIS. Those vessels in surveying on the west coast will go out and stay as long as the fuel will last, from six weeks to two months. They have to have something to keep their supplies out there so that they will not spoil.

The CHAIRMAN. What do the mine sweepers do when out; do they not have to have supplies?

Capt. FARIS. Yes, sir; but as far as I know they have never stayed out any such length of time.

The CHAIRMAN. Have they no refrigeration plants?

Capt. FARIS. No refrigeration plants. They carry ice to last a week or two.

The CHAIRMAN. Where they have ice space on these ships you want to put a refrigeration plant in?

Capt. FARIS. Yes, sir. All ships that go to sea like that carry a plant for the purpose of preserving food.

The CHAIRMAN. You might as well build a new ship?
Capt. FARIS. The last estimate we had was $500,000.
The CHAIRMAN. You would not have gotten it.

Capt. FARIS. This will make the ships suitable for our purposes. The CHAIRMAN. Miscellaneous alterations as may be found necessary after trial, overhauling valves, machinery, and deck fittings, both vessels, $4,000 each, $8,000. What does that mean? These ships, you say, are in operating condition, so far as the machinery is concerned, and you are proposing to change the machinery after you get them?

Capt. FARIS. No; not change the machinery. We will change some of the quarters.

The CHAIRMAN. Overhauling valves, machinery, and deck fittings is not that the machinery?

Capt. FARIS. Yes, sir. The valves may be just in the pipe-lines. The CHAIRMAN. But that is a part of the machinery.

Capt. FARIS. We are not going to bother the engine at all.

COST OF ALTERATIONS.

The CHAIRMAN. How much is it going to cost you to do this in a respectable way, without any extravagance?

Capt. FARIS. Mr. Chairman, my opinion is that it will cost what we have estimated. As I say, we based those figures on figures that we got from a shipbuilding concern.

Mr. SISSON. When?

Capt. FARIS. About last August.

Mr. SISSON. There has been a great deal of change since August. The CHAIRMAN. Prices are lower also.

Capt. FARIS. There may be scome unforeseen things to be done. As you know, when you start to build a house, there are always some changes that you could not foresee.

Mr. SISSON. That was six or seven months ago.

The CHAIRMAN. You know how much cabin space you have now? Capt. FARIS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. If we give you that the rest is all right if you do not get it?

Capt. FARIS. I do not think I can say that, Mr. Chairman. We have got to change this up here [indicating] and also at this end [indicating].

The CHAIRMAN. You say the principal reason you want this at all is that you have to carry more officers and you have not accommodations for them-that is the only reason you gave yesterday at all? Capt. FARIS. We have got to change the arrangement.

The CHAIRMAN. If that is all you have got to do, as stated yesterday, all you need is $29,880?

Capt. FARIS. No; we have got to change these other quarters so that the men can be properly housed. We have to have drafting rooms, we have to change the mess room, we have to make that bigger.

The CHAIRMAN. That is contemplated in the other scheme; that is all included in it?

Capt. FARIS. That is just for the rear end of the ship. This [indicating] has to be extended just over to the right here [indicating]. Then we have to build up the sides to put in these staterooms [indicating] and fix a toilet room for them. When we do that we have made a place for more men to eat, and instead of just 3 it has to be made for the whole 10.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not mean to say that you are going to change the pilot house?

Capt. FARIS. We have to do this [indicating].

The CHAIRMAN. What is the matter with the pilot house?

Capt. FARIS. The pilot house is all right. We have to rearrange this thing [indicating].

The CHAIRMAN. In order to give the captain a better room?

Capt. FARIS. As a matter of fact he is not only the captain of the ship but he is the paymaster of the ship and he has to have a place where he can do his work.

The CHAIRMAN. Why does he have to have more room than any other man?

Capt. FARIS. Because, in addition to being captain, he is the chief surveying officer, and he is responsible for the records of the ship. The CHAIRMAN. How many men do you have?

Capt. FARIS. We have 53 men. He has to have all the papers there. Then he has got to pay the bills for the running of the ship. and he needs the additional space.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, Government activities always need more space than a private concern would put on a ship.

Mr. BYRNS. How far do you anchor out from the coast?

Capt. FARIS. That depends upon the depth of the water. On the Pacific coast we are limited in the matter of anchorage. There you do not have to go out very far. You could not anchor at all very far out, because the water is too deep. We observe the currents where we anchor and would probably anchor 6 miles offshore.

REFRIGERATION PLANT.

Mr. BYRNS. I was wondering why you needed a refrigerator plant. You say you have an ice plant and that you can carry enough for a 10 days or two weeks' supply, and I was wondering why you needed a refrigerator plant.

Capt. FARIS. Because you have to go to certain places to get ice. You must do that when you go in for your supplies, and if you do not have a refrigerating plant you would have to go in to get ice. However, we do not want to be going into port every week or so for that sort of thing. It is much more economical to stay out as long as you can, because when we are in port we are not surveying. That is the reason why the ship that will carry the most fuel and stay out the longest is the most economical ship in the long run.

Mr. SISSON. In other words, it is lost motion when you have to come in and revictual the ship?

Capt. FARIS. That is true. We had a ship that was built for a yacht that could not carry enough on board to keep her out for more than four or six days. She had to go into port every week.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what the officers like, is it not?

Capt. FARIS. They do not. I was an officer on board one of the ships for a great many years, and I much preferred to stay out and do my work. I did not go on shore and run around.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell us about the nonessential things in here that you can get along without. You must show us how you can get along without some of these things, because we will make you get along without them anyway.

Capt. FARIS. We left out all of the things that we could get along without before presenting the estimate to you.

The CHAIRMAN. You must cut out a few more things and show us where they are.

Capt. FARIS. There are no luxuries in here. All that we propose to do under this estimate is to make it so that our people can do their work properly.

The CHAIRMAN. They are not working on board the ship, but they work on land, as I understand it.

Capt. FARIS. The ship is at work also.

The CHAIRMAN. What does the ship do?

Capt. FARIS. She is surveying and running sounding lines. In the West Indies, when I was down there, we sent out launches to do work close to shore and the ship worked off shore, but the people all live on board the ship.

The CHAIRMAN. That is practically the same work that the mine sweepers do, and you do not need any special facilities for that. Capt. FARIS. But they must go on board at night.

The CHAIRMAN. We want to know where to cut this estimate. Capt. FARIS. I do not know of any place to cut it, I am sorry to say. The CHAIRMAN. Then we will cut it for you.

Capt. FARIS. I hope you will not.

The CHAIRMAN. We would rather cut it along lines that you could suggest.

Capt. FARIS. I would be glad to help you if I knew how to do it.

NEW BOATS.

The CHAIRMAN. I am not in favor of giving you these new boats at a cost of $5,900.

Capt. FARIS. We will be handicapped with the number of boats we have, and we can not work without them.

91019-22-12

The CHAIRMAN. You want electric launches or steam launches? Capt. FARIS. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You say you do.

Capt. FARIS. We want a motor of some kind in the boats. The gasoline motor is generally used.

The CHAIRMAN. How many of them would you build?

Capt. FARIS. We would carry the boats represented right here, or four.

The CHAIRMAN. How many do you have now?

Capt. FARIS. I understand there are only two of those boats there

now.

The CHAIRMAN. You will build two more?

Capt. FARIS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You want $5,950 to build two of those boats? Capt. FARIS. They will have to have engines in them. That means $2,500 apiece, and you can not buy them for any less.

The CHAIRMAN. It is more than that. It means $3,000 apiece, or $2,975 apiece.

Capt. FARIS. That is our experience.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean to tell me that these boats cost $3,000 apiece?

Capt. FARIS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What kind of boats are they?

Capt. FARIS. These boats will be about 30 feet long, or from 24 feet to 30 feet.

The CHAIRMAN. Boats 100 feet long, carrying 200 tons, equipped with compound engines, and capable of towing barges carrying 1,000 tons of freight, can be procured for $10,000. You propose to pay $3,000 for one of these little launches?

Capt. FARIS. They are working boats, and there is nothing fancy about them.

The CHAIRMAN. The price is outrageous.

Capt. FARIS. We have examined into the cost, and they are paying from $850 to $950 for a 24-foot whaleboat to-day. These boats are a good deal bigger than whaleboats; they carry engines and fuel tanks.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything else you care to say about this? Capt. FARIS. No, sir; we have made up this estimate and have made it to cover as little change as possible in these ships.

The CHAIRMAN. Suppose you did not get any of it, what would you do?

Capt. FARIS. We would have to do without.

The CHAIRMAN. You would get along without it?

Capt. FARIS. No, sir: we could not do our work properly without it, but we would have to do just as we have done in the past, or just as we have done without new ships for a number of years. The work is there to be done, and it has been waiting for many years to be done.

The CHAIRMAN. There is $8,000 here that nobody knows anything about. You do not even know anything about that?

Capt. FARIS. I know only this: I do not know what specific items that will turn out to be, but I do know that this ship has been overhauled now, together with the engine and machinery, and I do know

she has been laying up for a while. I know that when we make structural changes in the ship and try it out, we will find it necessary to make some further adjustments. That has been our experience with all ships, and it is the experience of every ship that ever went to sea. Those things that you can not foresee turn up, and how much they will amount to, I can not say. If there is any more information I can give, I will be glad to do it. I might say this, that our officer has been over this ship, and this is to cover other things that are certain to be required. Our officer has been over the ship, and there are some miscellaneous things that apparently must be done. What I mean by apparent things are things that will have to be done, but when that is done, they can not estimate what other things may have to be done. We have made the estimates upon the basis of the fairest price we could get, and we have made them upon the basis of the least changes that could be made under which we could get along at all.

The CHAIRMAN. Prices are very much lower than they were last August.

Capt. FARIS. When we go out for bids, we do not find them so much lower.

The CHAIRMAN. The prices of labor and material are coming down.

Capt. FARIS. Frankly, I think that to do the things outlined here will cost more than the amount estimated.

The CHAIRMAN. We are very much obliged to you.

FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 17, 1922.

DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR.

STATEMENTS OF MR. J. F. ABEL, FORMERLY CHIEF CLERK OF THE BUREAU OF EDUCATION, AND MR. EDWARD B. FOX, DEPUTY CHIEF DISBURSING CLERK, DEPARTMENT OF THE INTERIOR.

CREDITS IN ACCOUNTS OF CHIEF DISBURSING CLERK.

PAYMENT FOR MANUSCRIPT WORK FOR BUREAU OF EDUCATION.

The CHAIRMAN. You appear to have quite a number of cases here in which you are asking that the General Accounting Office be authorized to credit the accounts of the chief disbursing clerk of the Interior Department for payments which, I presume, were made without being authorized by law. Is that right?

Mr. ABEL. I think they were authorized by law. We had been making payments for such purposes in that way.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell us why you come to us with these cases? Mr. ABEL. We had been making payments of this kind for manuscripts and work of this character in the Bureau of Education. Dr. Claxton tells me that it had been done for about 10 years. We had been doing it certainly since July, 1918, when I first came there as chief clerk. The auditor found that there was some defect in the form in which the contracts were made, and held up those contracts.