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EXPENSES INCLUDED UNDER HEAD OF MISCELLANEOUS.

The CHAIRMAX. What does this expenditure under the head of miscellaneous expenses consist of ?

Mr. KEN XARD. As indicated by the title, there is a large variety of objects.

The CHAIRMAN. What does the item, “ Transportation of persons," mean?

Mr. KENNARD. That is for railroad fares.
Mr. HARRIS. For the judges' stenographers and secretaries.

The CHAIRMAN. What does the item “Transportation of things” mean? Mr. KENNARD. That is for freight. There is very little of that.

The CHAIRMAN. What does “ Subsistence of persons ” mean in this connection? Is that the subsistence allowed judges ?

Mr. KENNARD. No, sir; that is for the judges' clerks, and stenographers, and not for the judges. The judges are paid out of another fund.

The CHAIRMAN. You have an item of communication service, including telephone, telegraph, and postage.

Mr. KENNARD. Rates have been increased on that, slightly, and it will be a little more than heretofore.

The CHAIRMAN. You have an item for printing and binding. Of course, it costs less money to print and bind now than it did formerly, because the cost of paper has come down, as well as the cost of labor. Printing costs should be down 20 per cent. Mr. Harris. The increased business will take care of that.

Mr. KENNARD. We have had some special expenses this year. There was considerable printing incident to the Oklahoma boundary dispute. Copies of maps had to be furnished, showing certain aspects of the Red River and adjoining lands.

The CHAIRMAN. Has that been settled ?
Mr. KENNARD. It is still pending.

Mr. Sisson. Does the Federal Government finally have to pay that cost?

Mr. KENNARD. No matter how it is finally paid, it is payable in the first instance from this appropriation.

Mr. Harris. That is the share of the of the United States as an intervener in the case.

Mr. Sisson. I am wondering whether, or not, even if the United States should interevene between two States, this money should be finally taxed against the Federal Government.

Mr. Harris. If we should prevail, a lot of this money would come back in the form of taxable costs.

Mr. KENNARD. But it does not go back into the appropriation. It goes into the Treasury.

Mr. Harris. This item of printing and binding is largely for printing the records on appeals or in error and the briefs in those cases. The printing of the briefs is not taxable costs, but the printing of the records is, and the records constitute a large portion of it.

Mr. Sisson. I think where the Government intervenes between two States, under the Constitution, all of the costs should be charged against the respective States.

Mr. Harris. This is where the Supreme Court orders us to pay certain costs in those cases as the Government's share as an intervener.

Mr. Sisson. I do not think the Government should have any share in it.

Mr. KENNARD. I might say that there have been several other elements contributing to increase the expense.

The CHAIRMAN. There was no deficiency of $42,000 in the December deficiency bill under this item.

Mr. KENNARD. I can give you the date of it. I know the $12,000 was appropriated and used.

The CHAIRMAN. I was curious and wanted to look it up.
Mr. Sisson. I do not know how you got hold of that $42,000.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, it is not in that bill.
Mr. KENNARD. I will be glad to give you the date. I have the date
on my ledger at the office.

Mr. Sisson. Let the record show the date of that.
Mr. KENNARD, I will. (Date of act is Aug. 24, 1921.)
The CHAIRMAN. It may have been in the last deficiency bill.

Mr. Byrxs. There have been but two bills passed, one in December and then the August bill, and the August bill did not carry much of anything.

EMPLOYMENT OF CHEMISTS IX PROHIBITION CASES.

Mr. KENNARI. As I was about to state, we have an increasing expense all the time on account of the numerous analyses of seized intoxicating liquors. Each particular analysis costs very little, but there are so many of them that it makes quite an item, probably $10,000 or more. Each analysis costs from $5 to $15. Then there is the case against the City National Bank.

The CHAIRMAN. The Attorney General does not make the analyses ? Mr. Harris. No, sir; we have to employ chemists. The CHAIRMAX. You do that when you are about to try cases? Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir. Testimony is necessary to show that the liquor is intoxicating.

CITY NATIONAL BANK CASE.

Mr. KENNARD. The case against the City National Bank, with which, perhaps, you are familiar, is causing additional expense; that additional expense will be approximately $8,000 and is in connection with the taking of testimony in England and France. It is a Russian matter, and the amount involved is about $2,000,000.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the nature of the case ? Mr. KENNARI). The nature of the case, briefly stated, is that the United States sold to the All-Russian Union about $1,000,000 of war supplies and contributed about $1,000,000 to a scheme to buy up other supplies used there in order to prevent Germany from getting them during the war. The All-Russian Union, as it was called, tendered in payment for these purchases its deposits in the City National Bank of New York and gave us certain drafts which the City National Bank has refused to pay, upon the ground that they are not adequate.

The CHAIRMAN. On the ground that there is nobody to sign them; is that it?

Mr. KENNARD. They questioned the assignment of this money.

The CHAIRMAN. Was that the matter in which Bakhmeteff was interested? Mr. Harris. That was under the Kerensky government.

The CHAIRMAN. We gave the Russian government a credit of $180,000,000, and it was placed to the credit of Bakhmeteff in the City National Bank.

Mr. HARRIS. This was not the Russian government; it was some corporation formed under the Russian government and formed by the Governments of England, France, and the United States, as I understand it, whereby these supplies were to be bought by general purchase at the time the Kerensky government was in power.

Mr. Sisson. And Kerensky or that organization got the money and made certain deposits in the National City Bank?

Mr. KENNARD. They have certain deposits in the City National Bank of New York.

Mr. Sisson. A draft was given to Uncle Sam and he accepted it. but the bank will not pay it.

Mr. KENNARD. The bank says the transfer is not valid. That is one element. Another very important element of increase is the case now pending in San Francisco involving the payment to the United States of about $6,000,000 in the form of estate taxes under the revenue laws. Our expense in that case for experts alone, who are to determine the value of properties—and I understand the properties involved represent a value of about $90,000,000_will be from $15,000 to $20,000. We have over 25 experts and there is a great amount of property involved.

The CHAIRMAN. This $115,000 is asked for the purpose of covering those cases and other cases you have in mind?

Mr. KENNARD. Yes, sir. I speak of these as new elements, additional elements this year over and above the expenses of last year. I would like to say that I have made a very careful canvass of this situation, and have made an extremely careful estimate, after communicating with all the field offices.

SUPPLIES, ETC., FOR UNITED STATES COURTS AND JUDICIAL OFFICERS.

EOK FISCAL YEAR 1921.

The CHAIRMAN. We will proceed to the next item, “ For supplies. including the exchange of typewriting and adding machines for the United States courts and judicial officers, to be expended under the direction of the Attorney General.” For the fiscal year 1921 you ask a deficiency appropriation of $1,718.86.

Mr. KENNARD. These are unpaid bills for the fiscal year 1921. The department did not wittingly over-expend the appropriation for this year, as would appear on the face of the record.

The CHAIRMAN. You would have had money to pay those bills if they had been submitted in time. Mr. KENXARD. No, sir; that is not the situation. The CHAIRMAN. Then you did overexpend?

Mr. KENNARD. Briefly stated, the situation is this: The Government Printing Office, when we order supplies, gives us an estimate of the cost, and we charge the estimate up on our books pending the receipt of the bills. Many of these estimates were considerably

below the amount of the bills when they subsequently arrived, and that gave us a false perspective, as it were, on our appropriation.

The CHAIRMAX. Was that due to the fact that you got more goods than you originally ordered?

Mr. KENNARD No; they charged more on the bills than they did on the estimates, so that when we reached the end of the year we did not have the money with which to pay our bills.

The CHAIRMAN. This is all due to the Public Printer, is it? Mr. KENNARI). The difference in the estimates of the Public Printer and the bills rendered is the reason why we are not able to pay these bills. However, not all of these are bills of the Public Printer; these are other bills, but it made a situation under which the last rendered bills could not be paid.

The CHAIRMAN. To whom do you owe this money?
Mr. KENNARD. We owe it to quite a list of concerns.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you do not owe it to the Public Printer?

Mr. KENNARD. No; he got his money promptly. You see, out of this appropriation there is about $40,000 or $50,000 spent with the Public Printer. This is a list of the bills: •

SUPPLIES FOR UNITED STATES COURTS, 1921.

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35. 36

1.52

Old Dominion Paper Co., Norfolk, Va., pens and typewriter paper for

department and United States courts.. American Lead Pencil Co., New York, N. Y., pencils for use of depart

ment and United States courts--Library Bureau, Washington, D. C., manila folders for use of depart

ment. J. P. Nawrath & Co. (Inc.), New York, N. Y., Kraft paper for depart

ment. The Pennsylvania Railroad ('o., Philadelphia, Pa., court supplies

shipped to United States marshal, southern Ohio.---Galveston, Harrisburg & San Antonio Railway, Houston, Tex., court

supplies shipped to United States marshal, Houston, Tex.. Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul Railway ('o., Chicago, Ill., court sup

plies shipped to United States marshal, St. Paul, Minn-----General Supply Committee, Washington, D. C., ink and mucilage for de

partment and United States courts.-------Chesapeake & Ohio Railway Co., Richmond, Va., court supplies shipped

to United States marshal, Louisville, Ky---Chesapeake & Ohio Railway Co., Richmond, Va., court supplies shipped

to l'nited States marshal, Covington. Ky--Alaska Steamship Co., Seattle, Wash., freight charges, Seattle, Wash.,

to St. Michael, Alaska, supplies for United States marshal, fourth

Alaska.
The Pennsylvania Railroad ('o., Philadelphia, Pa., court supplies

shipped to United States marshal, Indianapolis, Ind---
The Pennsylvania Railroad ('o., Philadelphia, Pa., court supplies
shipped to l'nited States marshal, Brooklyn, N. Y.-----

---The Pennsylvania Railroad ('o., Philadelphia, Pa., court supplies

shipped to United States marshal, Philadelphia, Pa. Atlantic Coast Line Railroad Co., Wilmington, X. C., court supplies

shipped to United States marshal, Jacksonville, Fla.-Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul Railway ('o., Chicago, Ill., court sup

plies, frieght charges from Washington, D. C., to Seattle, Wash.

(United Staes marshal, Fairbanks, Alaska) -----Chicago & North Western Railroad, Chicago, Ill., court supplies

shipped to United States marshal, southern Iowa-------Chicago & North Western Railroad, Chicago, Ill., supplies shipped to clerk, district court, Nebraska ------

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Missouri Pacific Railroad ('o., St. Louis, Mo., supplies shipped to

United States marshal, eastern Texas------
Missouri, Kansas & Texas Railway of Texas, Dallas, Tex., supplies

shipped to United States marshal, northern Texas ------Missouri, Kansas & Texas Railway of Texas, Dallas, Tex., supplies

shipped to United States marshal, western Texas.----New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad, New Haven, ('onn., sup

plies shipped to United States marshal, Connecticut..-New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad, New Haven, ('onn., sup.

plies shipped to l'nited States marshal, Connecticut..
Boston & Maine Railroad, Boston, Jass., supplies shipped to United

States marshal, New Hampshire ---
Boston & Maine Railroad, Boston, Mass., supplies shipped to l'nited

States marshal, Maine-
Oregon-Washington Ra.lroad & Navigation ('o., Portland, Oreg., sup-

plies shipped to l'nited States marshal, eastern Washington.--Northern Pacific Railway Co., St. Paul, Minn., supplies shipped to

United States marshal, western Washington.------
Northern Pacific Railway ('o., St. Paul, Minn., supplies shipped to

l'nited States marshal, North Dakota Certificate 34357 (Public Printer) ---Certificate 34374 (general supply committee)--

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Total.----------------------

--------- 1,718. 86 The CHAIRMAX. Old Dominion Paper Co., American Lead Pencil Co.; Library Bureau; J. P. Nawrath & Co.; the Pennsylvania Railroad Co.; Galveston, Harrisburg & San Antonio Railway; Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul Railroad Co.; General Supply Committee; Chesapeake & Ohio Railway; Alaska Steamship Co.; the Pennsyl. vania Railroad ('o. again; Atlantic Coast Line Railroad Co.; Chicago, Milwaukee & St. Paul Railway Co.; Chicago & North Western Railroad Co.; Missouri Pacific Railroad Co.; Missouri, Kansas & Texas Railway ('o. Mr. SHERWOOD. Those are freight bills.

The CHAIRMAN. They are not supplies from the Government Printing Office? Mr. SHERWOOD. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAX. Why do you not keep track of these things, so that you do not run into this sort of difficulty ?

Mr. KENNARD. The difficulty arises in this way: We have numerous orders continually going to the Government Printing Office; when we send in an order the Government Printing Office sends back a statement saying: “This work will cost, say, $75.” We charge $7) against the fund, and we go right on with our business, depending upon these estimates, and then if the bill, when it comes in after the close of the year, is for more than $75 we are that much short.

Mr. Sisson. Let me see whether I understand you. You say the Public Printer makes certain estimates for you?

Mr. KENNARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sisson. And on those estimates you base all the other expenditures. Now, when you want something that can not be supplied by the Government Printing Office, you buy from other people; but, before their bills get in, the Public Printer's bill comes in and you find it is actually more than was estimated?

Mr. KENNARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. Sissox. So when the Public Printer gets his money—and he always gets his?

Mr. KENNARD. Exactly.

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