Mr. SISSON. Then there is no money with which to pay the bills on the outside?

Mr. KENNARD. That is it exactly.

Mr. SISSON. And you make the bills on the outside relying on the estimates of the Public Printer as being accurate?

Mr. KENNARD. That is it exactly.

FOR FISCAL YEAR 1922.

The CHAIRMAN. What about this $25,000 you are asking for 1922? You have already had a deficiency appropriation of $25,000 for

1922.

Mr. SHERWOOD. We asked for $50,000 at that time.

The CHAIRMAN. There is no use of your coming back for the other $25,000.

PUBLIC PRINTER'S BILLS FROM 1919 TO 1922.

Mr. SHERWOOD. I would like to read to you the Public Printer's bills for the last four or five years for this same purpose.

The CHAIRMAN. This is not for the Public Printer's bills; this is for supplies, including the exchange of typewriting and adding machines for the United States courts and judicial officers, to be expended under the direction of the Attorney General. This has nothing to do with printing.

Mr. SHERWOOD. Nearly half of that is used to pay for the printing that is done for the United States courts and judicial officers, such as blanks, dockets, and all kinds of printing.

The CHAIRMAN. There is not much use of limiting any of these departments in anything they ask, because if we do not give it to them they come back and ask for it again.

Mr. SHERWOOD. I will read these bills if you do not object. In 1918 the Public Printer's bill was $21,538.88; in 1919, $17,987.22; in 1920, $22.911.61; in 1921, $43,610.69, and for the present year, 1922, up to date we have an estimate from him for $31,600, with four months and a half to go. We furnish these officials with the blanks and dockets that are necessary for the transaction of the business of their offices.

Mr. HARRIS. This is one of those deficiencies that is caused by the increased business. The cases have to be docketed, and, of course, they have to have the dockets.

Mr. STEWART. We have to furnish all kinds of printing for them— dockets, blanks, forms, and things of that sort. The prohibition business and everything else has made the demands very heavy, although we have cut down the requests as much as we possibly can.

PURCHASE AND REBINDING OF LAW BOOKS FOR UNITED STATES JUDGES, ETC.

The CHAIRMAN. We will take up the next item for purchase and rebinding of law books, including the exchange thereof, for United States judges, district attorneys, and other judicial officers, for which you are asking a deficiency appropriation of $270.55 for the fiscal year 1920.

LAW BOOKS DELIVERED WITHOUT OFFICIAL ORDER.

Mr. SHERWOOD. That, Mr. Chairman, is caused by dealers from whom we have ordered books for the various officials, such as judges and district attorneys

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). This is for 1920, is it not?

Mr. SHERWOOD. Yes. We order them and they will fill our order and the bill will be settled; then when it comes time to issue other I books of the same set they send them to these judges, attorneys, marshals, or whoever they are, and they acknowledge receipt of them, and they mark across the face of the voucher, "Received," and mark the books, "The property of the United States," and there is nothing for us to do, then, but pay the bill.

The CHAIRMAN. Why should you pay the bill if a judge orders a book he has no right to order?

Mr. SHERWOOD. The department orders them in the first place, and then the book dealers send on continuations of the sets, and we do not know anything about it until we get their vouchers.

The CHAIRMAN. Then, we ought not to pay the bills. What right have they to send books that are not ordered?

Mr. SHERWOOD. Well, the books are received and marked "The property of the United States" and placed on the shelves of these various officers.

Mr. SISSON. You can not create a liability against the Government by that physical act.

Mr. SHERWOOD. No; and we have advised these book dealers that hereafter they must wait until they receive an official order before furnishing any books.

Mr. STEWART. As far as I concerned, I think the dealers and we have warned them as much as we can-ought to whistle for their

money.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not think they ought to be paid.

Mr. SHERWOOD. As I say, we have notified the dealers that hereafter they must not send books until they have an official order.

Mr. BYRNS. In these instances they have actually accepted the books and retained them?

Mr. STEWART. Yes; the courts have ordered these books, but they have had no order from the department.

Mr. BYRNS. But you have the books and if you do not want to pay for them you should turn the books back.

Mr. SISSON. I am willing that they should be turned back and the chairman is willing. In other words, the ordering authority ought to order these books and not the individual officers, and if this praetice were continued Congress would not know how such money was being expended.

The CHAIRMAN. If everybody can be a purchasing agent for the Government-that is, if the booksellers can be purchasing agents for the Government-I do not know where our obligations are going to end. However, I presume it is not very often that anything like this happens.

Mr. SHERWOOD. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Because generally the Government does not pay what it does not owe.

Mr. SISSON. But the principle is all wrong.

Mr. HARRIS. These books have been ordered by United States judges, and when they get them and accept them there does not seem to be anything else to do but pay the bills.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not think that should follow at all. I had a letter from a district judge in Panama, and he said he thought it was entirely proper to buy a picture of Mr. Taft, the Chief Justice of the United States, and put it in his court. He sent the bill here for payment, but it was refused; he sent it to me and said it should be paid, but I sent it back to him and told him he ought to pay it.

Mr. STEWART. He sent it to us for payment, but the department I wrote him and said, "Nothing doing.

The CHAIRMAN. He said he thought it was entirely proper for a judge to buy anything he wanted.

SUPPORT OF UNITED STATES PRISONERS.

We will take up the next item, support of prisoners. For the support of United States prisoners, including necessary clothing and medical aid, etc., you are asking a deficiency appropriation of $16,907.98. This is a 1919 deficiency?

AMOUNT DUE DEPARTMENT OF CORRECTION, NEW YORK CITY.

Mr. KENNARD. Yes, sir. The main portion of this-that is, $15,754.36-is proposed to be paid to the department of correction, New York City. It is the New York State Penitentiary on Blackwells Island. The circumstances which caused delay are, briefly stated, thus: We had a contract with them to maintain these prisoners at 67 cents per man, and they rendered their bills accordingly for quite a while. Later the bills began to come in at 90 cents per man; we declined payment on the ground that we had contracted for 67 cents; that we had no notice of the abrogation of the contract because of changes made in the rate by the State, and that until the receipt of formal notice setting aside the contract a just claim against us could not be for more than 67 cents; they refused to accept settlement on that basis, and so the matter was delayed from year to year.

Mr. HARRIS. They appealed to the comptroller, and the comptroller held that 67 cents was all that could be paid.

Mr. KENNARD. So ultimately, instead of paying a bill of $19,000, we paid only $15,000 or $16,000.

The CHAIRMAN. This is at the rate of 67 cents.

Mr. KENNARD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What is this $2.500 for repairs, betterments, etc.? Mr. HARRIS. That is just the usual text.

Mr. KENNARD. That is the usual text of the appropriation?

The CHAIRMAN. The $15,754.36, then, is the amount due under the contract with the city of New York at 67 cents a day?

Mr. KENNARD. Yes, sir.

AMOUNT DUE DR. BRACKETT, SAN FRANCISCO, CALIF.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you make up the balance of the $16.907.98? Mr. KENNARD. There are three other items involved in this deficiency. One is the bill of Dr. Brackett, of San Francisco, Calif., for visits and medicines to United States prisoners in the San Francisco

County jail in 1918. The doctor was long in rendering his bill, and after he rendered it

The CHAIRMAN (interposing). How much is his bill?

Mr. KENNARD. $1,033.50.

The CHAIRMAN. Now give us the rest.

Mr. HARRIS. That was held up because we refused to settle the bill. He was under indictment and we prosecuted him, but he was acquitted. Then, of course, we had to pay that bill. We thought there were false claims in the original bill.

The CHAIRMAN. What difference does it make, if his bill was right, whether he was indicted or not?

Mr. HARRIS. We wanted to determine whether he had made any false claims.

Mr. SISSON. Was he indicted as to these items?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir; on other matters; but we held up everything. We thought we would find that there were amounts due from him on previous bills paid.

Mr. BYRNS. If you found there were any such amounts you wanted to use them as a set-off?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir; but he was acquitted.

Mr. SISSON. There were other items?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes; that we had previously paid.

Mr. SISSON. And which you thought were fraudulent?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SISSON. And which you would have recouped?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

AMOUNT DUE WALKER DRUG CO., KETCHIKAN, ALASKA.

Mr. KENNARD. The next is the bill of the Walker Drug Co., Ketchikan, Alaska, for $51.55.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that for 1919?

Mr. KENNARD. Yes; it is all 1919.

The CHAIRMAN. One is 1918?

Mr. KENNARD. No: the December quarter. 1918, is the fiscal year 1919; it is all the fiscal year 1919.

The CHAIRMAN. How much is that bill?

Mr. KENNARD. $51.15. There was some delay in getting this bill. It is for drugs and medicines furnished Federal prisoners.

AMOUNT DUE DR. CHARLES J. ELLIS, PITTSBURGH, PA.

Then there is another bill of $68.97 in favor of Dr. Charles J. Ellis, Pittsburgh, Pa. This doctor was very slow in putting in his bill and there was some question about the authorization of the services, although it was found subsequently that he was entitled to the money. He was paid at the rate of $500 per year, which was to include all medicines and services rendered to prisoners in the Allegheny County jail. We had 480 prisoners there during the fiscal year 1919. This is only a portion of his bill, because the rest of his bill belongs in other years in which we have money.

The CHAIRMAN. What are the other bills?

Mr. KENNARD. That is all, and that makes up the entire amount. The CHAIRMAN. That makes up the $16.907.98?

Mr. KENNARD. Yes, sir.

AUTHORIZATION TO PAY MISSOURI AND CONNECTICUT REFORMATORIES.

The CHAIRMAN. What have you to say about the following item: The accounting officers of the Treasury are authorized and directed to allow from the appropriation for Support of prisoners. United States courts." for the proper fiscal year, $19.42, covering the bill of the Missouri Reformatory at Boonville, Mo., and $18.08, covering the like bill of the Connecticut Reformatory at Cheshire, Conn., for clothing and discharge gratuities furn'shed United States Prisoners Oscar Culler and G. L. Duvack, who were confined in said institutions.

Mr. KENNARD. These prisoners were not entitled to this clothing, because they were committed for a period of less than six months, but the institutions in which they were confined, presuming that they were entitled to the clothing, furnished it to them; and while we have the money with which to pay these amounts, we are not able to pay them without authorization of law.

Mr. BYRNS. This is not the first time this estimate has been before the committee.

Mr. KENNARD. Yes; this is the first time this item has been presented.

AUTHORIZATION TO PAY CALIFORNIA STATE PRISON.

The CHAIRMAN. What have you to say about the following item: The General Accounting Office is authorized and directed to allow under the appropriation “Support of prisoners, United States courts," for the proper fiscal year, the sum of $8, covering the bill of the California State prison at San Quentin, Calif., for an advance to discharged prisoners of the estimated cost of eight meals to be taken by said prisoners en route to their respective homes. Mr. HARRIS. Those prisoners were discharged at San Francisco, and the warden figured that the $5 cash gratuity allowed by the Government was not sufficient to take them to their homes, so he gave one man $3 and one man $5.

The CHAIRMAN. Then he should have paid it out of his own pocket and not wasted the Government's time in printing this item.

Mr. HARRIS. It is very difficult to get these State institutions to understand the restrictions of the Federal laws with respect to gratuities.

Mr. SISSON. I do not think that sort of a claim should be paid.

Mr. HARRIS. But we are in this position: We ask them-and sometimes almost get on our knees--to accept these prisoners, and they say, "If you do not want to pay these bills take your prisoners away. Mr. KENNARD. This amount is due the State of California-it is the California State Prison.

The CHAIRMAN. And the warden of the California State Penitentiary paid the money?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. No doubt it has cost more than $50 to print this stuff, including the correspondence.

Mr. HARRIS. We had several instances in Maryland where they told us to take the prisoners out, and we had to move some to Rhode Island at a cost of about $300.

Mr. KENNARD. We have the money, but we are unable to pay it without this authorization. We are not asking for any money.