SUPPLIES AND EQUIPMENT.

The CHAIRMAN. For office supplies and equipment you estimate $1,300. You already have office supplies, I suppose?

Miss ABBOTT. Yes; but these would be additions to the staff. The CHAIRMAN. Do you get your supplies from the Supply Committee?

Miss ABBOTT. Yes; and they charge us full rates on all those things.

EXPRESS.

The CHAIRMAN. Then you have an item for express. Do you express these reports?

Miss ABBOTT. Oh, no; we express our exhibit material and things of that sort.

The CHAIRMAN. What have you in the shape of exhibit material? Miss ABBOTT. Well, it is exhibit material that is principally used in connection with the child-hygiene demonstrations, scales on which to weigh the babies, and things of that sort.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean that you weigh the babies?

Miss ABBOTT. Oh, my, yes; when we go out for a demonstration we examine them and weigh them. Then we have simple things that the mother may use, such as cradles.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean you furnish cradles for them? Miss ABBOTT. No; we have simple ones along with us for the mother to see.

FIELD RENT.

The CHAIRMAN. Then you have an item for field rent.

Miss ABBOTT. We practically never have field rent. It might happen, though, that at some time we would have to hire a place and pay rent, so we put in an item with reference to it.

Mr. BYRNS. When you go out you usually use the resources of the community, do you not?

Miss ABBOTT. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not think we ought to allow any rent in the field.

Mr. BYRNS. In cooperating with the State would you not use the State offices?

Miss ABBOTT. Yes; but some time you might go out into a town where the State has no offices.

Mr. BYRNS. You would only be there for a short while.

Miss ABBOTT. But you must have some place.

The CHAIRMAN. They go to a hotel, do they not?

Miss ABBOTT. They stay at a hotel; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. They do not rent an office, do they?

Miss ABBOTT. No, they do not use their hotel room for an office. The CHAIRMAN. I do not think that is a proper charge.

Miss ABBOTT. But it might happen that we would have a group in a town where there is no space in the Federal building. We usually get space in the post office building if we can get it.

Mr. BYRNS. You are cooperating with the States. Of course, the States put up money and you contribute money to the States, and when you go into a State I presume, of course, you consult with the health authorities.

Miss ABBOTT. Yes, sir.

Mr. BYRNS. That being so, why would it not be possible to get quarters with them?

The CHAIRMAN. It is a dangerous thing, because it grows worse than sweet clover.

Miss ABBOTT. That has not been our experience.

The CHAIRMAN. And we have no desire to make it grow.

Miss ABBOTT. That is not the practice with us.

The CHAIRMAN. It may not have been with you, but we know what the practice is in all other departments.

Miss ELMORE. We have not spent $200 during the past year, and we have only hired space when we had to house our records.

The CHAIRMAN. That would be storage; I should not think you would call that rent, but if it is rent I do not think we should consider it, because that is one of the most iniquitous things we have to deal with.

Miss ABBOTT. I do not think you will find there has been any abuse in the Children's Bureau.

The CHAIRMAN. We have no complaint to make; we are just giving you a warning.

Miss ABBOTT. You may be giving me a tip as to opportunities that have never occurred to us.

The CHAIRMAN. We are not at all enamoured with that sort of an expenditure, although it is not large here.

Miss ABBOTT. No, and it never would be large.

PROPOSED ALLOCATION OF APPROPRIATION.

The CHAIRMAN. It is not the amount involved now but it is the future we must have in mind. Now, why do you ask for $1,480,000? Miss ABBOTT. Because the act provides or authorizes the expenditure of that amount.

The CHAIRMAN. For a year.

Miss ABBOTT. Well, it says it is to be available for a year after that time, and it was on that basis that we asked that amount.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, you know the act provides for that amount of money for one year, that is, $1,480,000 for the first year and after that $1,240,000.

Miss ABBOTT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And that is on the basis of a full 12 months, not on the basis of 4 months or 3 months?

Miss ABBOTT. I supposed it was on the basis of 24 months; I mean to run for a year longer.

The CHAIRMAN. All acts provide that unexpended balances remain available for two years-that is, they do not go into the Treasury, but that does not mean that if you only have three months to go you would get the annual amount.

Miss ABBOTT. Is it your thought that we ought to have the recommendation that has been made by the Bureau of the Budget, $300,000! The CHAIRMAN. We do not care what they recommend.

Miss ABBOTT. I just wanted to have something to discuss with you and tell you some of the difficulties in an estimate of that sort as far as administration is concerned. The act provides that any State that accepts the provisions of the act and can match $5,000

shall have $5,000, and then the balance is to be on the basis of population. Now, if the appropriation is made that way, that means that we would have to set aside out of the $300,000, $240,000 ($5,000 for each State) and then if 5 per cent went to the Children's Bureau for the purposes of administration that would be $15,000, which would leave $45,000 to be apportioned among the several States on the basis of population.

The CHAIRMAN. Whatever the proportion of the year is, of course, is as far as we would go in making an appropriation. There is no doubt about that.

Miss ABBOTT. The difficulty at the present time is that we do not know how many States will accept between now and the time we get the money available.

The CHAIRMAN. That does not make any difference.

Miss ABBOTT. It makes a difference as far as what is available for the States is concerned. I want to be entirely frank with you about the number of States that have come in and what we think they are going to do. We have had these 31 States accept. Most of the acceptances have been by the governors because the State legislatures are not in session and many of them have no money available and can not match the Federal funds, although some of them can. Some of the acceptances have been through legislative action.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, the acceptances have been through legistive acts?

Miss ABBOTT. Yes, sir. We have had information from a good many of them that they expect to be able to match the Federal funds, but we have not had an actual showing that they will be able to match.

The CHAIRMAN. We would like to know those that have actually set apart the money, if we can get that information.

Miss ABBOTT. I should consider that our information on that was entirely incomplete. They have sent us word that they expect to be able to match it but we are not sure that they will actually be able to do so, and we will not be able to know until we see the terms of the appropriations made. This chart shows the States whose legislatures are now in session and who might accept before July 1 and match the entire amount, but what it will be on that basis we can not say.

The CHAIRMAN. What do these black lines indicate?

Miss ABBOTT. These [indicating] are the States whose State legislatures have accepted.

The CHAIRMAN. And as to the others you have had no response? Miss ABBOTT. We have heard from some of them, and there are some State legislatures now in session, New York, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Kentucky, etc.

The CHAIRMAN. You have six States that have legally accepted? Miss ABBOTT. Yes. The act only went into effect November 23. New Mexico, North Dakota, Delaware, and Minnesota accepted before the act went into effect; South Dakota did also, but with the qualification that the act was not amended from the form in which it was then before Congress; of course, it was amended so that the act will have to be accepted over again. The legislatures of Oregon and Virginia have accepted since the act was passed.

The CHAIRMAN. We will work this out, but I think it is only fair to say to you that it will be worked out on the basis of the remainder of the year. For the balance of this year the States will get their proportion and we will expect you to give them the proportionate amount they are entitled to for the balance of the year.

Miss ABBOTT. Well, that means, of course, that a good deal of the $300,000 will not be spent.

The CHAIRMAN. You must remember that this bill only provides for the activities until the 30th of next June; we do not go beyond that in this bill.

Mr. CANNON. Does it require an act of the legislatures of the respective States?

The CHAIRMAN. Before they can be allotted anything out of this fund.

Miss ABBOTT. They can get their appropriation pending the next meeting of the legislature on the basis of the governor's acceptance. Mr. CANNON. Do you mean that you pay them the money just on the mere request of the governor?

Miss ABBOTT. Yes, his formal acceptance, pending the meeting of the next regular session of the legislature.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that what the act says?

Miss ABBOTT. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, we will look that up before we make the appropriation.

Miss ABBOTT. It is section 4 of the act.

Mr. KELLEY. I have forgotten the exact wording of the act, but is there not some provision which authorizes a redistribution to the States that accept the benefits of the act of the share of those which do not accept?

Miss ABBOTT. No; there is not. What I would like to have to the end of this year would be that those which do accept shall get the full amount.

The CHAIRMAN. It would not be fair to do that, because they would not use it and they would not be ready for two or three months. Miss ABBOTT. Why could they not use it if it runs for a period of 15 months?

The CHAIRMAN. We do not want to provide something for disposal next year that ought to be disposed of this year. We have got to look at the Treasury of the United States. Our job is to visualize the whole United States and consider the taxpayer.

Miss ABBOTT. And mine is to visualize the mothers and children who are dying.

The CHAIRMAN. Yours is to advocate the activities in which you are engaged.

Miss ABBOTT. No; I do not regard it as that. Very little of this comes to my particular bureau. I am thinking of the mothers and children out in the field who are suffering an unnecessary and terrible loss of life.

Mr. BYRNS. The annual bill will carry the amount you can allot to the States for the fiscal year beginning July 1 of this year and ending June 30, 1923. If the act provides so much money for the entire year and we were to allot the full amount for the period between now and July 1, then in addition to that money your allotment for the next 12 months would exceed the authority contained in the act.

Miss ABBOTT. As soon as this appropriation becomes available, or within a period of 60 days after it becomes available, I am supposed to make an allotment to the individual States, and that is to be based on whether they have accepted or not, how much they have matched of the amounts, and so on, and that the plan under which they propose to expend it has been approved by the Federal board. Then next July-and I am stating this as I understand it-when the appropriation for 1923 becomes available we allot again under that appropriation, and it may be a different allotment. An allotment is made to the individual States that have accepted the act and matched the funds that are to be matched and had their plans approved. Is not that correct?

Mr. BYRNS. Congress only makes its appropriations by fiscal years. Miss ABBOTT. Well, I am thinking of that and I had that in mind. The CHAIRMAN. Of course, we have no other alternative except to carry out the law; we have restrictions on our right to do things, and we can not do for this activity what we can not do for any other activity.

Mr. KELLEY. I do not quite understand what Miss Abbott really

wants.

The CHAIRMAN. She wants the whole of this sum.

Mr. KELLEY. Do you want money appropriated now for the four months of this year plus the 12 months of next year?

Miss ABBOTT. No.

Mr. KELLEY. Then what is it you want?

Miss ABBOTT. My understanding is that if you appropriate, let us say, $300,000 now and it is not spent by the several States between now and July 1, it is available for the period of one year after that. Suppose Illinois' allotment is $40,000: if the allotment is not spent between now and July 1 it is available for the period of one year after that. That is what the act provides.

The CHAIRMAN. We can not do that and we have no authority to do it.

Mr. BYRNS. That would be up to the comptroller general, anyhow. The comptroller general would decide whether this money could hold over, but ordinarily under the law it would go into the Treasury. The CHAIRMAN. Section 4 of this act provides:

In order to secure the benefits of the appropriations authorized in section 2 of this act, any State shall, through the legislative authority thereof, accept the provisions of this act and designate or authorize the creation of a State agency with which the Children's Bureau shall have all necessary powers to cooperate as herein provided in the administration of the provisions of this act: Provided, That in any State having a child-welfare or child-hygiene division in its State agency of health, the said State agency of health shall administer the provisions of this act through such divisions. If the legislature of any State has not made provision for accepting the provisions of this act the governor of such State may in so far as he is authorized to do so by the laws of such State accept the provisions of this act and designate or create a State. agency to cooperate with the Children's Bureau until six months after the adjournment of the first regular session of the legislature in such State following the passage of this act.

So, as a matter of fact, you would have to ascertain whether the governor of the State had the power to accept or to promise to participate. The only safe thing to do, in my judgment, is to make no allotment on the suggestion of the governor of a State until the legislature itself has acted, because in nine times out of ten the