The CHAIRMAN. That number you gave means ships of all types? Secretary DENBY. Yes, sir; the 817 takes in everything in commission, even the smallest.

Mr. KELLEY. I judged from Admiral Coontz's statement that the policy was to be much more economical with the smaller ships during the rest of the year, but your request involves the expenditure of practically the same amount, month by month, that you have spent all the year back.

Secretary DENBY. No, sir; our request is for a figure that will carry us through and is approximately $500,000 less per month.

Mr. KELLEY. It is close to $2,500,000 per month that you are asking for. You do not know exactly what balance you have on hand, but you have some and you are asking for pretty close to $2,500,000 per month for the rest of the year. I think the admiral stated when he was here that he thought there would be quite a slowing down on certain types of ships. He stated that he had issued instructions where he had found that certain ships were using too much oil that would result in quite a bit of saving in the future, but I do not see any evidence of that in these estimates.

Secretary DENBY. We are still making every effort to effect savings. Of course, it would be foolish to come before a committee of Congress with an estimate based upon nothing definite, and then have to come back later for more money. We would have to come back and say that we either must tie up certain ships, which I do not think the committee wishes us to do, or that we would have to have more money. I am giving you an estimate on which I know we can get through with the Navy as it is at present, under the reduced steaming plans that are now in operation, and we have conserved as much as we possibly could. I think that in the year prior to that, or in the fiscal year 1921, we expended

Mr. KELLEY (interposing). You spent $36,000,000. You were spending at the rate of $3,000,000 per month, and were paying over $3 a barrel for oil, 20 per cent more for coal, and you had a 20 per cent bigger Navy. If you have figured down your oil and fuel costs to their present basis, you will see that you are running far beyond the basis on which you were going last year.

Secretary DENBY. We had some extraordinary expenses this year, of course.

Mr. KELLEY. But you are getting oil for $1.48 per barrel, as against three dollars and something last year. You are getting your oil on the Pacific coast at $1.48 per barrel.

Secretary DENBY. I think we are paying $1.76 per barrel, are we

not?

Capt. LEUTZE. $1.78 is the average for the Pacific coast, and that includes the handling charge. The net price is $1.50 under the new contract for San Francisco and San Pedro. The average net price for the Atlantic coast is $1.88 plus 17 cents for a handling charge. Mr KELLEY. It is $1.50 under the new contract?

Secretary DENBY. Yes, sir.

Mr. KELLEY. The estimate submitted last year was based upon what price?

Mr. REED. $2.85 was the average last year.

The CHAIRMAN. There is quite a difference between $1.48 and $2.85.

Secretary DENBY. During the current fiscal year we have had two battleships added to the list of vessels in commission, the U. S. S. California and U. S. S. Maryland, battleships, first line, oil burners. Mr. KELLEY. And you have taken out six battleships?

Secretary DENBY. We have taken out during the current fiscal year four battleships, second line, all coal burners. If you can convince us that these figures are wrong, while I still recommend the amount we have asked for, we would like to know wherein they are wrong. If you can show us any way by which we can economize here, we will be glad to do it. What I want is an amount that we know is adequate, and I hope the committee will understand that we are making every effort to economize. We will not throw any oil away because we have authority to get it. I do not like to see the Navy seriously crippled, as it might be.

The CHAIRMAN. How much additional fuel would be required upon the basis of a cruising period of five days per month instead of the present cruising period of three days per month?

Admiral CooNTZ. I will have to supply that figure for the record if you wish it, but within the last few days the Secretary of the Navy has made executive decisions involving changes in the composition of the fleet and changes in the status of some of the ships of the Navy. These decisions have not been fully promulgated to the personnel involved and the arrangements themselves have not reached an executive stage. Consequently the estimates under fuel and transportation as submitted and as now before the committee may be now subject to revision and some reduction. The answer to your question based on the estimate submitted to date would be of no use to you under the circumstances and would involve a long calculation.

FUEL AND TRANSPORTATION.

Mr. KELLEY. The amount you ask for fuel for the rest of the year is $10,709,000.

Capt. LEUTZE. Yes, sir.

Secretary DENBY. Taking off $500,000 for the Alaskan coal development, if you want to do that, or rather the amount left March 31, when work stops.

Mr. KELLEY. Give us the details of the $10,709,000 estimate.

Capt. LEUTZE. The details are on the credit side of this statement. The item of coal is $2,419,411; fuel oil, $8,009,870; gasoline, $465,360; maintenance of coaling plants, $496,957; tug hire, $96,000; water, $187,500; ice, $20,000; miscellaneous, electric current, storage, and compressed air, $117,200, and Alaska coal development, $500,000. The CHAIRMAN. That makes a total of

Capt. LEUTZE (interposing). A total of $12,312,229.52, but we have a balance of $1,603,178 to apply against that.

The CHAIRMAN. Leaving a net balance of how much?

Capt. LEUTZE. $10,709,120.

The CHAIRMAN. And from that you may deduct $500,000 for the Alaskan coal development.

Capt. LEUTZE. Yes, sir; or the balance remaining when work stops. Mr. KELLEY. How do you arrive at the number of barrels of oil needed?

Capt. LEUTZE. We have the operating plan which was furnished by the Chief of Naval Operations. We take the name of each individual ship, and from the record that was sent in for those ships on coal and oil consumption we compute the requirements for each ship, and we arrived at that amount in that manner.

BATTLESHIPS.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us take the battleships: How much of the estimate of $10,709,120 is on account of battleships?

Capt. LEUTZE. For coal on battleships, $350,111.

Mr. KELLEY. $350,000 worth of coal for battleships?

Capt. LEUTZE. Yes, sir. I am giving that in round numbers. Mr. KELLEY. There is $350,000 for coal, and how much for oil?

MISCELLANEOUS FLAGSHIPS.

Capt. LEUTZE. $786,861. The next item is for miscellaneous flagships

Mr. KELLEY (interposing). I suppose the miscellaneous flagships go with the battleships?

Capt. LEUTZE. No, sir; not in this computation.

ARMORED CRUISERS.

Mr. KELLEY. Let us leave them out for the moment. How much do you estimate for the armored cruisers?

Capt. LEUTZE. I have not got them down as armored cruisers. I put them down in accordance with the operating plan of operations. It does not check in with that annual report of the Paymaster General you are reading from.

Mr. KELLEY. Why do you not follow the form that the Bureau of Supplies and Accounts follows?

Capt. LEUTZE. Because we computed this on the operations plan given by the Chief of Naval Operations. That was the way we were told to get it up.

Mr. KELLEY. You can not tell them, of course, the requirements for each class of vessels.

Capt. LEUTZE. For instance, of the armored cruisers two are in the miscellaneous flagships.

Mr. KELLEY. Is there not some way by which you can tell how much oil you will burn on the armored cruisers?

Capt. LEUTZE. Not without a redrafting of this statement. It would have to be gone over again by ships.

Mr. KELLEY. The department has a scheme of accounts by which it keeps the account of the battleships, armored cruisers, cruisers of the first class, etc., right straight down. If in making your figures you had followed your own plan, we could tell by comparison where we were at, but if you mix the ships up we can not do it, because we can not tell what ships are going to be supplied with fuel. In determining on a policy that we might have in mind, that sort of information would be important.

Admiral POTTER. We can give you that information.

Mr. KELLEY. How long would it take to make up an expense sheet that will be fairly in accordance with this system of yours?

Admiral POTTER. We could furnish it to-morrow.

Mr. KELLEY. We will want you to bring it up with the latest available accurate figures obtainable covering the expenditures on account of the ships in the Navy.

Admiral POTTER. It would take four or five days to do that.

Mr. REED. You want a statement like that contained in the annual report, showing the expenditures on these ships?

Mr. KELLEY. That would be helpful, but we are discussing only fuel now. Later on I would like to have the complete statement. Admiral POTTER. That can be furnished in three or four days. Mr. KELLEY. How long would it take to supply a table like that in the annual report showing all the expenses of all the ships, ship by ship, under the proper classifications?

Admiral POTTER. That would take 10 days.

Mr. KELLEY. That would bring you up to how late a date?

Capt. LEUTZE. Not much beyond the 30th of September, or for the first three months.

Mr. KELLEY. When do you get in your report for the second three months?

Capt. LEUTZE. Some of it is 60 to 90 days getting in.

The CHAIRMAN. This bill can not wait for that, because there are some urgent things that must be passed before the 15th of March. For instance, we have some provision here for the Veterans' Bureau. Mr. KELLEY. Can you give the amount estimated for the first-class cruisers?

Capt. LEUTZE. No, sir; I can give the amount for the destroyers.

DESTROYERS.

Mr. KELLEY. Let us have the destroyers.

Capt. LEUTZE. We have 65 of them, active, $1,349,838.03. For the reserve destroyers, $2,187,203-213 of them.

Mr. KELLEY. That makes a total of $3,536,203 for the destroyers alone?

Capt. LEUTZE. Yes, sir; $3,537,041.

Mr. KELLEY. What is the situation as to steaming with respect to the 213 that are in reserve.

Capt. LEUTZE. This was computed on one day's steaming in 30. Mr. KELLEY. It will take practically $2,187,000 to keep them idle? Capt. LEUTZE. Averaging one day's steaming per month for 213 destroyers.

Mr. KELLEY. How much did you spend on these reserve destroyers whey they were very active last summer during those three monthsthe 213, or whatever number was in reserve?

Capt. LEUTZE. Destroyers of the first line, 161 of them. It is not separated for those in reserve, sir; they are all in here together, and there are 276 of them.

Mr. KELLEY. Do you not know what you spent on the reserve destroyers last summer?

Capt. LEUTZE. Not separately; I have not that figure with me.
Mr. KELLEY. But that figure is available, is it?

Capt. LEUTZE. I think we can get it.

(NOTE.-One hundred and ninety-six reserve destroyers burned fuel to the approximate value of $2,220,904 during the months of June, July, August. and September.)

The CHAIRMAN. How much was it for all of them?

Capt. LEUTZE. For the three months, $3,183,000. This includes both active and reserve destroyers for July, August, and September. Mr. KELLEY. And how many were there?

Capt. LEUTZE. Two hundred and seventy-six. We had to estimate for 115, sir. We did not have the reports in at the time this statement was made up.

Mr. KELLEY. So you are going to spend during the next six months about one-half as much for fuel for the destroyers as you spent during the first three months?

Capt. LEUTZE. About half as much, sir, approximately, per month. The CHAIRMAN. You have given us a figure, $3,187,000, for 276 destroyers for the first three months, and if I recall correctly the figure we had before us previously it was $12,000,000 and something as against what we approximated at $9,000,000 for the entire year, so that it is really more now than was stated then.

Mr. KELLEY. Yes. If they had gone on at that rate it would have taken $12,000,000 for the destroyers alone.

The CHAIRMAN. While the information you gave us then indicated an expenditure of $9,000,000 for the destroyers?

Admiral POTTER. We have here 100 reserve destroyers for July, August, and September, 331,000 barrels, at an average price of $3 a barrel, $993,000. That is for 100.

Mr. KELLEY. Roughly speaking, you had 300, so that would be around $3,000,000, which is what you gave here.

Admiral POTTER. The $3 per barrel was before the reduced price took effect.

The CHAIRMAN. When did the reduced price become effective? Admiral POTTER. It became effective the first time in November. Mr. KELLEY. So if you spent $3,183,000 in the first three months, with oil about half what it was then, and you are asking for $3,536,000 for the next six months, it would mean that you intend to run the destroyers about the same as you did in the first three months?

Admiral COONTZ. No: there is some error in the figures or in the reasoning, one or the other, because it is a practical impossibility to consider that. He should have figured this on the small amount they are to run during the last six months. Now, just where the trouble is I do not exactly see, but, of course, it is a physical impossibility, and I will have to look into that. The misunderstanding arises through the fact that a comparison has been made between figures for three months and those for six months. In the first case 276 destroyers used oil to the value of $3,187,000 in three months, or at the rate of $7,366,000 for six months. The estimate for the second six months is for 278 destroyers at a value of $3,537,000, or at approximately one-half the former rate of consumption. Mr. Madden speaks about the $9,000,000 which was figured last spring, and then we were talking about the destroyers.

The CHAIRMAN. You recall that?

Admiral CooNTZ. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And we only estimated that it would take $9,000,000. I do not think you admitted it, but we estimated it at that amount, and the figures now indicate $12,000,000 at that rate.