Mr. KELLEY. You can see that if you used $3,183,000 in three months and ask for $3,536,000 for six months, with oil about half what it was then, it would mean practically the same steaming, and I wondered whether there might be some mistake in the figure. Capt. LEUTZE. In the month of December, from actual report, 217 destroyers in reserve used only $326,000 worth of oil.

DESTROYERS LAID UP.

The CHAIRMAN. How much oil do you use on one of these destroyers when it is in reserve? Tell us what you have to do.

Secretary DENBY. Captain, did you take into account the 100 we propose to lay off?

Capt. LEUTZE. No, sir; they are put down in this statement, Mr. Secretary, as being a part of the 213 in reserve.

Secretary DENBY. Their oil consumption will be very little when laid up, of course, and I will say in that connection that the order

to decommission the 100 has scarcely become operative, but that is the order, so I think there is some partial explanation there, because 100 destroyers will be absolutely out of commission.

Admiral CooNTZ. We figure that the 100 destroyers that are going to be put out of commission are costing, in fuel, roughly, $111,000 a month, which would be $1,332,000 a year, more or less, based on a minimum period at sea each month, as at present.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, when they are laid up.

Admiral COONTZ. Completely laid up; yes. We figure that is what they are costing us now and that is what we will save if we put them out of commission, if the treaty should be ratified.

Mr. KELLEY. Just what do you do to a destroyer when you put it out of commission, or put it in reserve?

Admiral CooNTZ. The placing of a destroyer out of commission means taking all the crew off of it, all heating and all lighting. Secretary DENBY. Except about six men in the crew.

Admiral COONTZ. We would not have more than that and might not have that many, especially if we should lay them up at a navy yard like Philadelphia or tie them up to a buoy in Charleston. In that case the only expense would be that of having somebody go around from time to time to see that there was no possible deterioration. It is our intention with these destroyers that are new to place them in the best possible shape when we lay them up. In other words, they will be completely out of commission.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, you intend to grease their machinery and everything of that kind?

Admiral CooNTZ. Yes, sir; in every possible way.

Mr. KELLEY. I had special reference to the fuel. What fuel do they burn when they are laid up?

Admiral CooNTZ. None.

Mr. KELLEY. Then, where do you get the $326,000 worth that you say was burned in December?

Admiral CooNTZ. They are not laid up yet; they are in commission, and those are the destroyers we are talking about. Mr. KELLEY. The 213 in full commission?

Admiral COONTZ. In reserve commission; yes, sir. Of that number we expect 100 to go out of commission; they stop cruising.

Mr. KELLEY. That is what I am getting at. If you intend to grease them up and put them in proper storage, why can you not begin the operation at once?

Secretary DENBY. We shall begin it at once.

Mr. KELLEY. Because in 12 months it means about $1,000,000 for fuel.

Secretary DENBY. It is fully intended to begin it at once.

Mr. KELLEY. And if you begin it at once you do not need so much for fuel.

Secretary DENBY. I think that is a fair deduction, but Capt. Leutze is not to blame.

Mr. KELLEY. I am not blaming anybody; I am just trying to get at the amount of money necessary.

Secretary DENBY. It is the purpose immediately to lay these destroyers up and put them out of commission, dry their boilers, dry them out in every way possible, and put them out of commission, in which event they will not have any fuel consumption.

Mr. KELLEY. Who knows what you do with a destroyer that is in reserve commission?

Secretary DENBY. She has about half a crew, and she steams a certain number of days a month. She is extraordinarily valuable for the training of men, and the vessel itself is kept in tiptop condition. Mr. KELLEY. Then, for all practical purposes, these destroyers in reserve commission are really in full commission, as far as fuel goes? Secretary DENBY. On steaming days they would be in full commission; yes, eight hours a month, and these destroyers would need. fuel for that time, but the rest of the time they need a small amount of fuel; the exact amount I can not tell, but it is based on the necessities of light, etc.

Mr. KELLEY. Captain, is it your understanding that the 213 destroyers in reserve steam only eight hours a month?

Capt. LEUTZ. I computed this on one day a month.

Mr. KELLEY. One day of 24 hours?

Capt. LEUTZ. Yes; one day of 24 hours.

Mr. KELLEY. That would be three 8-hour days?

Capt. LEUTZE. Yes, sir; that is the way this was computed. Admiral CooNTZ. That is on this line, that during the months of January and February, while we are waiting on this deficiency, they were ordered not to steam over eight hours, but should we get the money they would steam one day a month. I think he has figured on steaming one day a month.

Capt. LEUTZE. One day a month for the six months, sir; in other words, six days' steaming between now and the 1st of July at 24 hours a day.

Mr. KELLEY. I am not sure yet as to the basis on which you arrive at the $326,000 for the month of December. Is that based on 8 hours during the month or is it based on 24 hours?

Capt. LEUTZE. That is from the actual reports of consumption. Mr. KELLEY. You do not know whether they steamed 8 hours or less or more?

Capt. LEUTZE. No, sir.

Secretary DENBY. I think we know they steamed more then than they are steaming now.

Admiral CooNTZ. I would like to verify that in the record: I would not like to state offhand. I find the figures are not available, but believe they were in accordance with instructions.

The CHAIRMAN. Are the 100 destroyers about to be laid up included in this calculation?

Capt. LEUTZE. Yes, sir; they are included in that 213.

Secretary DENBY. But I would like to say that they are included in the calculation as reserve destroyers. However, they will not be reserve destroyers. They will be destroyers absolutely out of commission.

The CHAIRMAN. And in making the fuel figures I assume that the fuel consumption of the 100 destroyers to be laid up will be deducted from the $10,000,000 you estimate?

Secretary DENBY. I should think there would be some deduction on that account.

The CHAIRMAN. But not for the entire period, because they will not be laid up at once.

Admiral CooNTZ. They will have to steam to the places at which they are to be laid up; and then their stores, if sent to a navy yard. will have to be very carefully taken ashore and invoiced; then we would endeavor with the crew to do all of the laying up of the engines, etc., and it would be a steady-going process. But whatever saving would be made on that would come out of this fuel.

Secretary DENBY. I think a very liberal allowance should be made for the cost of laying up, as it will be considerable.

Mr. KELLEY. We are only dealing with fuel, Mr. Secretary. Secretary DENBY. It will require fuel until they have reached their berths, wherever laid up.

Mr. KELLEY. The cost of laying up, of course, would enter into this, except as far as fuel is concerned.

Secretary DENBY. That is right; moving them to the point of berthing them.

The CHAIRMAN. That would not enter into this, and what I would like very much to have

Secretary DENBY (interposing). Except that some items of fuel would probably come in and the maintenance of some trifling number of men.

The CHAIRMAN. What I would like to have is a statement showing the possible saving that would result from that source.

Secretary DENBY. I think such a statement should be prepared for you.

The CHAIRMAN. And if we have that in the record it would help us. Mr. KELLEY. How much have these reserve destroyers been running this last month?

Admiral CooNTZ. To the best of my knowledge they have run eight hours.

NOTE. The saving will be about $1,000 per month in fuel after they are finally placed out of commission in June, based on present method of operation.

Mr. KELLEY. Just eight hours during the month?

Admiral COONTZ. Yes; but I would like to verify that. A part of those to go out of commission are at Charleston, S. C., and a part

at San Diego, Calif. We have a board now in session trying to decide whether we can care for a part of them at Philadelphia, whether Mare Island will hold some of them, and otherwise whether we will keep some of them out of commission at San Diego or some at Charleston.

Mr. KELLEY. Do you remember what the steaming was during the first three months? It was a good deal more than that, was it not? Admiral COONTZ. Very much, sir.

Mr. KELLEY. So that with the reduced price of oil, Mr. Secretary, and with the reduced plans of steaming, it seems to me as though the figures are excessive.

Secretary DENBY. I think the figures should be gone over again, and we will do that, but I should explain that it was only last week that I ordered the laying up of the destroyers.

The CHAIRMAN. It is only a question now of how long a period of time will be covered by the laying up of these destroyers, and whether you are going to steam them from San Diego to Philadelphia will have something to do with it.

Secretary DENBY. All of those elements will have to be considered in estimating the cost of laying them up, and, therefore, their maintenance while laid up.

Mr. KELLEY. What other classes have you?

DESTROYER TENDERS.

Capt. LEUTZE. Destroyer tenders.

The CHAIRMAN. Being a landsman I would like to have you tell me what a destroyer tender is.

Capt. LEUTZE. It is the mother ship for 18 destroyers, as a rule, and it carries stores, provisions, etc.

The CHAIRMAN. It is a warehouse?

Capt. LEUTZE. It is a floating warehouse, yes sir; and a reserve depot.

The CHAIRMAN. That answers my question.

Mr. KELLEY. How much for the destroyer tenders?

Capt. LEUTZE. $104,191 in coal and $117,076 in oil.

The CHAIRMAN. How many destroyer tenders have you?

Capt. LEUTZE. Seven, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. All in commission?

Capt. LEUTZE. That is the way this was computed; we figured they would keep seven.

The CHAIRMAN. How many will be in commission if these 100 are laid up?

Admiral CooNTZ. We took out one, and it will depend on whether all the destroyers go out of commission at San Diego or Charleston as to whether we can take out two. We have already taken out one.

SUBMARINES AND SUBMARINE TENDERS.

Capt. LEUTZE. The next item is 81 submarines, $137,432. Then 6 submarine tenders, $51,904 for coal and $62.776 for fuel oil. The CHAIRMAN. That covers all the submarines, does it?

Capt. LEUTZE. No, sir; we have seven of what they call shorebased submarine tenders; they stay at the base and do not move, as

a rule, but they do keep up a certain amount of steaming for necessary purposes, such as charging batteries, etc.

The CHAIRMAN. A submarine tender carries the fuel supply and the food supply?

Capt. LEUTZE. All submarine tenders do not carry fuel.

The CHAIRMAN. It carries extra fuel, does it not?

Capt. LEUTZE. It carries lubricating oil, clothing, provisions, general supplies, and sometimes fuel. Usually the oil is carried in tankers.

Mr. KELLEY. How much do you estimate for those tenders?
Capt. LEUTZE. $110,179.

Mr. KELLEY. That is oil?

MINE LAYERS.

Capt. LEUTZE. Yes; seven of them. Two mine layers, $31,254 coal and $40,778 fuel oil.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you need mine layers; that is, do you need to keep them in service?

Admiral CooNTZ. Yes we were very deficient before the last war, and we found how necessary it was to keep up the mining process. and we also know that the mine barrage which we laid in the North Sea had a great deal to do with the ending of the war.

The CHAIRMAN. I was wondering whether you needed to keep them in active service now.

Admiral COONTZ. We do it for this reason, that we have to have somebody who knows how to do it.

Secretary DENBY. We need to keep such men trained as a part of a balanced navy.

Mr. KELLEY. There are some more of those vessels, are there not? Admiral CooNTZ. Those are the big mine layers, while the other are the smaller ones.

Capt. LEUTZE. We have light mine layers, too.

Mr. KELLEY. They are laid up?

Capt. LEUTZE. No; we have 14 of those, and they amount to $276,175 for oil.

Mr. KELLEY. Do you not think that as a deficiency proposition we might stop the mine-laying work for a while?

Secretary DENBY. I do not know about that; it is a part of the fleet, and if we are going to keep up the units of the fleet we will need mine layers. We are not laying mines, neither are we firing at an enemy, but we are keeping up our target practice.

Admiral CooNTZ. Mr. Secretary, we told the committee the other day that we had decided to reduce those to 10, of which 4 would be in the Atlantic, 4 in the Pacific, and 2 in China; that would allow a reduction there of 4.

The CHAIRMAN. And the cost of the others would be how much? Admiral CooNTZ. It would be that much off; it would be a proportional reduction, four-fourteenths, depending on when they go out of commission.

Capt. LEUTZE. $80,000, roughly, if they had been decommissioned in January.