WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 15, 1922.

VETERANS' BUREAU.

STATEMENTS OF COL. C. R. FORBES, DIRECTOR; MR. HAROLD W. BREINING, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR FINANCE DIVISION; MR. R. C. ROUTSONG, BUDGET OFFICER; AND MR. J. B. MILLIKEN, ASSISTANT MANAGER OF DISTRICT ORGANIZATIONS.

VOCATIONAL REHABILITATION.

The CHAIRMAN. The first item before us, Col. Forbes, is entirely for vocational training.

Col. FORBES. Yes, sir; there is also a second item for medical and hospital services.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, that is involved in it.

Col. FORBES. There are, however, two separate items.

BASIS OF ESTIMATE.

The CHAIRMAN. You are asking $73,714,182 for vocational rehabilitation. Explain to us, if you can, how this amount is made up. and why such an amount as this is necessary for the rest of the fiscal year?

Mr. ROUTSONG. You will remember, Mr. Chairman, that when we came before the committee in connection with the first deficiency appropriation the total estimate was $142,000,000. It has been necessary to increase that estimate by about $37,000,000. The first item out of the $37,000,000 is $16 240,200. It was thought that the cost of living over the country would show a reduction which would necessitate a reduction in the base maintenance pay for trainees. This condition has not occurred and by reason of same no reduction could be made by the bureau in the base maintenance pay, and because of that fact $16,240,200 additional has been requested.

We had estimated that the total amount required would be $142.000,000, which we explained in detail at the previous hearing. The figure of $16.240,200 is arrived at by subtracting the average amount per trainee with the $80 basic pay from the average amount per trainee with $100 basic pay and multiplying it by the total estimated number of training months for the year. The second item of increase is one of $20,716,675, and that is due to the fact that the estimated rate of rehabilitating these men, which the Federal board estimated would be two years per man on an average, taking the whole group. has not worked out in practice. For instance, I might give you a concrete illustration. In December two years ago 2.858 men entered training; on the basis of that tabulation, of course, in this last December that number should have completed training, whereas as a matter of fact-and this is the best month on record—we had 1,603 men complete training. So you see we fell back; our actual number of men rehabilitated has fallen below the estimated number of men to be rehabilitated.

The CHAIRMAN. You suggest that you have $16,000,000 and over in this estimate, due to the fact that living conditions would not permit a reduction in base maintenance pay?

Mr. ROUTSONG. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And $20,000,000 due to the fact that the period of training is to be longer-is that right?

Mr. ROUTSONG. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Wherein does that affect this bill? We are only dealing with the question from now until the 1st of next July.

Mr. ROUTSONG. I thought, Mr. Chairman, that you would like to know how we arrived at this total estimate.

The CHAIRMAN. But the total estimate is only for a period of four months.

Mr. ROUTSONG. I was considering the total estimate for the year. The total estimate for the year is $178,714,182.

The CHAIRMAN. How many men have you in training as compared with the number you had in training when you were here before? At that time I think you said you had 104,000, and that out of that number 94,000 were being paid. Have you any more than that in training now?

Mr. ROUTSONG. We had at the time of our last appearance before your committee-and the figures we used, I think, were for October-96,001 men recorded as in training, as against 103,975 on December 31. But this shows you the increase over a period of three months.

The CHAIRMAN. You asked $77,000,000 for vocational training when you were here before and we gave you $40,000,000. Is not that right?

Mr. ROUTSONG. That was a deficiency; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. This is a deficiency, is it not?

Mr. ROUTSONG. Yes, sir. The total amount we requested was $142,000,000, and we had $65,000,000, and the difference between those two would be $77,000,000.

NUMBER OF EMPLOYEES ATTENDING TO TRAINEES OVERHEAD COST PER TRAINEE.

The CHAIRMAN. How many men are employed in attending to these men who are in training? What does it cost per man for overhead?

Col. FORBES. There were 7,129 employees on the vocational rehabilitation pay roll on January 1, 1922. The amount paid in salaries from August 10 to January 1 was $4,190,000, and the total disbursement out of this appropriation for administration was $4,826,000, or approximately $11 per trainee per month.

The CHAIRMAN. We ought to have that information. How much money do you need to carry you during the next four months for training-that is, from the 1st of March? You will have three million and some dollars on hand the 1st of March.

Mr. BREINING. That $3,000,000 will probably all be encumbered, though.

The CHAIRMAN. But you will have it on hand.

Mr. BREINING. That is only the cash. The amount we have on hand March 1 we will have to pay out after July 1, because, you see, our payments would not terminate on June 30.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the average monthly cost, then?

Mr. BREINING. It is running now about $15,000,000.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it liable to increase or decrease?
Mr. BREINING. It is liable to increase.

NUMBER OF TRAINEES ENTERING TRAINING MONTHLY.

The CHAIRMAN. How many men are going into this work of training monthly, and how many are going out?

Col. FORBES. The average during the last quarter was 4,600 per month; last month about 1,600 went out, and about 900 theretofore. Mr. ROUTSONG. I can give you figures over a period of months. I can give them now or insert them in the record.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us have them now.

Mr. ROUTSONG. This is the total number of trainees entering, by months, starting with June 1, 1921.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us have it for this year. How many have you in now? I think you said you had 104,000.

Mr. ROUTSONG. And the number we expect to enter during the rest of this year?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; that is the point. What we want to do is to figure out what we will have to do for the rest of the year. That is all we are working on now.

Mr. ROUTSONG. In round numbers we estimated that there would be an additional 4,000 enter per month.

The CHAIRMAN. For each month?

Mr. ROUTSONG. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What has been the experience during the last four months?

Mr. ROUTSONG. For the last four months of which I have a record the figures are as follows: September, 5,490; October, 7,104; November, 4.145; and December, 3,304. That will vary from month to month.

The CHAIRMAN. And you figure that the average will be about 4,000 a month?

Mr. ROUTSONG. Yes, sir; and that is very conservative.

The CHAIRMAN. On the average how many will you take into training during the next four months; that is, from the 1st of March to the 30th of June?

Mr. BREINING. I should say it would average 3,000 a month.

The CHAIRMAN. Give it to us as definitely as you can. Give these figures with some degree of accuracy, because you can calculate, and we do not want to guess at them.

Mr. BREINING. It is all a matter of guess, because we do not know how many men will apply for training.

The CHAIRMAN. But 440,000 have already applied, and 229,000 have been passed upon as eligible, and you say that 127,000 have actually entered training, according to your report.

Mr. BREINING. I base the 3,000 upon the fact that we have had an average of about 4,000 coming in during the last few months. Therefore I assume the average would be about 3,000. This figure is given taking into consideration the 1.000 completing training.

ESTIMATE OF COST FOR SECTION 2 AND TWO TRAINEES FOR BALANCE OF PRESENT FISCAL YEAR.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us get at this thing systematically. There is only one way to do it, and we might as well do it orderly and not talk around it. For example, to-day you have how many? Let us get it

as of the 1st of February. You have money enough to carry you to the 1st of March, and I want to know how many you will have on the 1st of March. We are dealing with cold facts and must know what we should do between now and the 30th of June.

Mr. ROUTSONG. As close an estimate as we can give you will be 96.000 men in section 2 training at the present date.

The CHAIRMAN. That is as of the 1st of March?

Mr. ROUTSONG. Yes, sir. You will understand, of course, that we have in addition section 3 trainees for whom we have to pay bills. The CHAIRMAN. What do you have to pay for them?

Mr. BREINING. Tuition and supplies.

The CHAIRMAN. How much does that amount to per man per month?

Mr. ROUTSONG. That will average about $50 a month or about $600 per annum.

The CHAIRMAN. Let us see if we can figure this out as you would figure it out if you were going to pay these bills yourself. You say you have 96,000 at $100 a month?

Mr. ROUTSONG. The average is $115 a month for base maintenance pay as provided for under the law.

The CHAIRMAN. Just get a pencil and figure this out. You say you will have 96,000 on the 1st of March; how many are you going to have from the 1st of March to the 1st of April? You say 4,000 more. Mr. ROUTSONG. I think Mr. Breining's figure of 3,000 additional trainees for each month would be a proper one.

The CHAIRMAN. That would be 3,000 for four months from the 1st of March: Figure that up and see how much that amounts to. Then you have 3.000 more for three months-April, May, and June-according to your figures, and you would have 3,000 more for two months and 30,000 more for one month-is not that right?

Mr. ROUTSONG. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. See how much that amounts to.

Mr. BREINING. It would be the same as 30,000 on one month's basis, 30.000 additional trainees.

The CHAIRMAN. That would be $3,450,000, would it not?

Mr. BREINING. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Then you have 96,000 for four months, or, say, it would be 384,000 for one month?

Mr. BREINING. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And we are now talking about section 2 men.

Mr. BREINING. $2,000,000 for the section 3 men and I figure it at $44,160,000 for the section 2 men for four months.

The CHAIRMAN. That is for the 96,000?

Mr. BREINING. Yes, sir; at $115 for base maintenance pay as provided for by law.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the other amount?

Mr. BREINING. $2,000,000.

The CHAIRMAN. And $44,160,000?

Mr. BREINING. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That would be $46,160,000?

Mr. BREINING. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That takes in the maintenance pay of $115 per month to trainees-the overhead and everything?

Mr. BREINING. It does not take in the overhead.

Mr. ROUTSONG. The $115 is the average amount in maintenance pay per trainee.

The CHAIRMAN. I think you said $126 covered the whole cost, so that it is pretty close to $11 for overhead, according to the way you figure it.

Mr. BREINING. Tuition amounts to $50 a month, or about $600 a year, so that figures $200 additional on each trainee for the rest of the year.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean the tuition is added to the $115?
Mr. BREINING. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not see where you get it.

Mr. MILLIKEN. The tuition cost would only apply to those taking institutional training and not to those taking placement training in the various industries.

Mr. BREINING. No; but your average in training would be 50 per cent in placement training and the other 50 per cent would be in institutional training.

Mr. ROUTSONG. And we gave a figure, I believe, of something over $12 to cover tuition and supplies, and that was what might be called an actuarial figure spread over all of these men, including those in placement training and those in institutional training.

The CHAIRMAN. According to that there would be 384,000 men at $12; then you have 30,000 more, and that would be 414,000 men at $12-that is, for the next three months.

Mr. BREINING. That is monthly; that is $12 a month.

The CHAIRMAN. It is all per month; we have 414,000 men for a month, so it would be figured on that basis, and that would be $4,968,000.

Mr. ROUTSONG. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, is there anything included in that for overhead?

Mr. BREINING. No, sir; that is not included in this.

The CHAIRMAN. What is included in this? Just the cost of training, $115 a month, on the average, then for the No. 3 trainees $2,000,000, and then $12 per man per month for tuition costs-is that right?

Mr. BREINING. The $12 per month figures in tuition and supplies. The CHAIRMAN. You refer to the $12!

Mr. BREINING. Yes, sir; and on 50 per cent of the men you can figure $50 a month.

The CHAIRMAN. On top of this?

Mr. BREINING. Yes, sir: they are the ones in institutional training. The CHAIRMAN. What else is to be added to this?

Mr. BREINING. Your overhead.

The CHAIRMAN. What does the overhead amount to?

Mr. ROUTSONG. I think probably 8 per cent ought to be added for overhead.

The CHAIRMAN. Eight per cent of the total?

Mr. ROUTSONG. Eight per cent of the direct disbursement would be a fair estimate.

The CHAIRMAN. That would not include supplies?

Mr. RUTSOng. No, sir. That would include such items as vocational officers, teachers, and instructors.