The CHAIRMAN. Eight per cent of $49,610.000? The CHAIRMAN. That would be 8 per cent per annum? Mr. ROUTSONG. Eight per cent of this figure, because it applies to this amount. The CHAIRMAN. That is substantially $4.000,000. First, you have your supplies, then you have your No. 3 trainees at $50 a month per man, tuition, and supplies, and now you have your overhead and base maintenance pay. Let us see if I have this right. You have 414,000 men per month at $115; that makes $47,610,000. Then, $2,000,000 for your No. 3 trainees, which makes $49,610,000; then you have for supplies an average of $12 per man, for 414,000 trainees, or $4,968,000; you have your No. 2 men, for whom you pay tuition for 207,000 men $50 per month, $10,350,000; 8 per cent for overhead on the first charge, $49,610,000; that would be $4,000,000, or a total of $68.928.000. You are asking for $73,000,000? Mr. BREINING. There should be added to $68,938,000 an item of $480,000 for supplies for No. 3 trainees, or making a total of $69,408,000. We will also have $10,000,000 or $15,000,000 outstanding on the 1st of March of debts that we have not paid. The CHAIRMAN. You have $18,00,000 on hand? Mr. BREINING. That is cash balance in the Treasury. The CHAIRMAN. You say your expenses are $15,000,000 a month? Mr. BREINING. This last month. The CHAIRMAN Of course, we have to make some deduction from this. You have $18,000,000 on hand, according to your own statement, and you have $15,000,000 of obligations to meet as of the 1st of March, and that leaves you $3,000,000. I am just figuring in round numbers. Mr. ROUTSONG. That $15,0000,000 represents obligations. Mr. BREINING. Incurred. The CHAIRMAN. As I figure, we have $69,408,000 calculated on the figures. We have not made any deductions for the men going out of training. Mr. BREINING. We only figure on 3,000 instead of 4,000 because of the fact 1,000 are going out of training. The CHAIRMAN You have more than 1,000? Mr. BREINING. That is the average over a period of months. Mr. ROUTSONG. In July, 666; August, 691; September, 501; October, 738; November, 1,088; December, 1,603. There is a question there as to whether that rate will be kept up or not. Col. Forbes has devoted a great deal of attention to this problem of rehabilitating men who were due for rehabilitation. I am not prepared to say and I do not believe Col. Forbes is that he will be able to continue to rehabilitate 1,600 men monthly the rest of this year as was done during the month of December, 1921. You can see from these actual figures that that is the result of what might be called a "cleanup." I think 1,000 is a very conservative figure. The CHAIRMAN. We do not want to tie them up. If you think 1,000, we will assume 1,000. Mr. ROUTSONG. I think that 4,000 entering monthly is a low estimate. Col. FORBES. We have made an inspection of the industrial activities with a view to getting them out of training into jobs. We have received many hundreds of letters from the big industries of the country in which they have given us a very concise statement of their business operations and their inability to absorb our rehabilitated men. It is not the activity of getting men out of training, because we have had a much greater influx for training than we have had discontinued. There is a great industrial unrest all over the country. As stated, we have these thousands of letters from the leading industries of the country, and men who were employed in those institutions have been laid off on account of business depression. The CHAIRMAN. Now, we have made the figures according to your calculation, $69,408,000, and that provides for the reduction of 1,000 men a month during the rest of the year. Why do you want $73,000,000? Mr. BREINING. It is calculated that we will have $3,000,000 in cash left in the Treasury on March 1, so the difference between $73,000,000 and $69,000,000 is $4,000,000, and it would seem to appear that we were asking for $7,00,000, but at present we have, conservatively speaking, at least $10,000,000 in outstanding obligations. The CHAIRMAN. You will always have that? Mr. BREINING. We will have to pay that out of this appropriation in July. The actual cash will be disbursed after the end of the fiscal year, but it still represents an incumbrance against the appropriation which has to be met. The CHAIRMAN. I understand there is a good deal of talk about the fact that we are negotiating for the purchase of property. Is there any truth in that? Col. FORBES. All we are doing is locating properties. We bought one property, the only property which has been bought. The CHAIRMAN. Where is it located? Col. FORBES. For a hospital. The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything of that sort in view? Col. FORBES. Nothing whatsoever. The CHAIRMAN. There is no prospect of anything of that sort being done? Col. FORBES. Absolutely not. TRAINEES AT CAMP SHERMAN. The CHAIRMAN. What is the situation with reference to Camp Sherman? How many men have you there? Col. FORBES. About 270. The CHAIRMAN. Why do you not get more there if you are going to run it? Col. FORBES. I think that is perfectly easy to explain. We have had such an unfair propaganda against Camp Sherman, and there have been all sorts of efforts to destroy the school, even to destroying the morale of the institution. The CHAIRMAN. Then you are not going to make a success of it? Col. FORBES. Yes; we will absolutely make a success of it. The CHAIRMAN. You intend to continue it? Col. FORBES. Unless Congress should decree that we shall not. The CHAIRMAN. How much money have you spent on Camp Sherman in the way of construction? Col. FORBES. We have done no construction work, just repairs. We repaired the schools to take care of 500. That was for the first bunch of men. Due to carrying out the provisions of the law we intended to expand to where we could increase the school to 1,000 capacity. With all our expenditures we have not exceeded the cost of operating at the other schools. NUMBER OF EMPLOYEES AT DISTRICT AND CENTRAL OFFICES. The CHAIRMAN. How many employees have you at the different district offices? Mr. ROUTSONG. 13,500 in all district offices and suboffices. The CHAIRMAN. And how many here? Col. FORBES. In the central office? The CHAIRMAN. Yes; in this office. Col. FORBES. 5,092 in Washington, D. C., central office. Col. FORBES. 13,500. The CHAIRMAN. Does that include everybody in the field? The CHAIRMAN. Any men outside doing outside work? Col. FORBES. That is everybody in the field, district offices and suboffices. The CHAIRMAN. That makes about 19,000? Col. FORBES. 18,592. The CHAIRMAN. How many did you have before you commenced the district offices? Mr. BREINING. The Public Health Service, the Vocational Board. and the War Risk had their men in the field. The old Bureau of War Risk had about 5,800 in Washington. The CHAIRMAN. Is that number increasing or decreasing, the number of employees? Col. FORBES. It is decreasing in the central office, Washington, D. C., and increasing in the field. COMPLAINTS REGARDING TOO MANY EMPLOYEES. The CHAIRMAN. I am told that you have so many people in the office down here that there is not any work for them? Mr. BREINING. The Bureau of War Risk when Col. Forbes came there had about 5,800. The CHAIRMAN. They did not have these outside expenses? Mr. BREINING. There has been very little work taken away from the central office. We have taken over 1,000 employees from the Federal Board, which would bring that up to 6,800, and we took a good many from the Public Health Service. We have now about 5,000. There is really a net decrease of over 2,000 in the central office. The CHAIRMAN. There is a good deal of talk-I do not know how much is justified-that there are a lot of people down there who do not have anything to do, just wander from place to place and do not do anything; they get in groups and loiter. Mr. ROUTSONG. There is at present an unpleasant situation as regards many employees who wonder what is going to become of them, 91019-22--7 and who go to their Congressmen for the purpose of effecting a transfer. That is the first argument they use in trying to get a transferthe fact that they are not needed. I do not say that that applies in this situation, but it has been my experience in looking up a number of individual complaints that the reason for the complaint was that the employee was anxious to effect a transfer and was using the argument that his services were not needed. The CHAIRMAN. This does not come from other employees, but from people on the outside. Col. FORBES. We are in the process of decentralization, and within 45 days hence the entire bureau will be decentralized. I should like to invite your attention to the claim examiners who go into the field to take over the work. I am sending out the experienced men now. We have to take in other men to carry on the work until the decentralization is completed. There is very general unrest in the bureau due to the fact that men have been notified that they are going out of the central office. There is congressional activity to hold a good many of these men here whose services are not required. The CHAIRMAN. You ought not to give that very much consideration. Col. FORBES. I do not. The CHAIRMAN. It should not be adhered to. Col. FORBES. No. The CHAIRMAN. We should run the business of the Government just like running our own business. Col. FORBES. That is the way I am trying to do it. The CHAIRMAN. If you find a request from me do not pay any attention to it. Col. FORBES. I have never found a request from you, Mr. Chair man. The CHAIRMAN. There are only two obligations which we have; one is to give service to these men who have been wounded as a result of their service in the war, and, second and primarily, this will be one of the things which will help them, not to have a dollar of expense more than is necessary to function the institution properly. If you have any more people anywhere on the pay roll than you should have, they should be dismissed. Col. FORBES. I am declaring people surplus right along. The CHAIRMAN. Do you have anybody go around to examine and see whether these people are working, getting out the work they ought to get out?. Col. FORBES. Yes, sir. Mr. BREINING. The bureau finds it necessary to work employees overtime. The CHAIRMAN. Of course, if they do not work in the day they have to work at night. Mr. BREINING. No; people who work in the daytime are working overtime. We are decentralizing, and rather than take additional employees on for a month, we would rather work our present employees overtime. Col. FORBES. I have sent a committee of a very active and progressive type into all the districts, after several meetings that we had before they left here, with instructions as to just what they should do to reduce the personnel in all of these district offices where it is found necessary. We worked up a schedule for employees for various types of work and to discharge employees in excess, and gave the committee very broad powers in that particular regard. I make it a point myself three times a week to go through the bureau from the eleventh to the first floor, and I have a standing committee in the bureau with whom I meet and discuss observations in the way of loitering, which you have mentioned. We have made a reduction of over 2,000 in the central office, Washington, D. C. The CHAIRMAN. Are you putting any new people on there now? Col. FORBES. Occasionally somebody goes on when somebody goes out. The CHAIRMAN. If we give you the $69,000,000, in effect, will that meet your necessities? Mr. BREINING. No, sir. OUTSTANDING OBLIGATIONS TO BE PAID AT END OF FISCAL YEAR. The CHAIRMAN. Why? $69,000,000 with the $3,000,000 on hand, according to your own statement, would make $72,000,000. Mr. BREINING. We have $10,000,000 outstanding. The CHAIRMAN. You do not know? Mr. BREINING. That is the best estimate we can make. I think it will come nearer to $15,000,000; $10,000,000 is very conservative. The CHAIRMAN. How much does it cost a month? Mr. BREINING. About $15,000,000. The CHAIRMAN. How can you have $15,000,000 outstanding? Mr. BREINING. $15,000,000 a month would be $180,000,000 for the year. Mr. ROUTSONG. Mr. Breining is discussing obligations incurred from August 10 to the present time. Mr. BREINING. On bills which have not been presented. The CHAIRMAN. You will always have that? Mr. BREINING. But at the end of the fiscal year you have to pay it. We will possibly expend $8,000,000 during July of this year, which will be paid out of the 1922 appropriation. let The CHAIRMAN. I think we better cut it down to $69,000,000 and you take a chance and see how you can work out. It may be that you can cut out a lot of these expenses. Mr. BREINING. Really, we think that $73,000,000 is very conservative. As a matter of fact, I do not know whether we can get through with it. The CHAIRMAN. What makes you think you can not get through with it? Mr. BREINING. Because of the outstanding obligations. The CHAIRMAN (interposing). You will always have obligations. Mr. BREINING. Under a continuing appropriation it would be all right. Under a fiscal year appropriation those obligations have to be paid after the end of the fiscal year. Our expenditures during the month following the end of the fiscal year are almost as great. Mr. ROUTSONG. I may say, Mr. Chairman, that if we have a monthly check of disbursements against the total allotments, that is |