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the railway servants, and would not Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-If my conscience had been as elastic as that of some of the right honorable gentleman's followers

have been fit to retain their positions, if they had voted other than they did. Who was it who really destroyed the Deakin Government? Although the right honorable member for Swan tries, whenever he has the opportunity, to place the blame on the shoulders of the Labour Party, it was not that party, but the present Prime Minister, who was to blame. Mr. REID. I shall have to make a personal explanation in reply to that statement. I voted with the Deakin Government. If I had voted against them, I should have been sent for by the Governor-General to form a new Administration.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-The right honorable gentleman, in an interview published in a Sydney newspaper, stated that he intended to vote with the Deakin Government, but that he wished his followers to vote according to their consciences.

Mr. REID.-Hear, hear. That is what the honorable member does not understand. Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-The right honorable gentleman said a little more to the same effect, which gave a very strong hint publicly to his followers-and I have no doubt that they received equally strong hints privately--to vote against the Govern

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Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-Although the right honorable gentleman said that he would not prevent his followers from voting according to their consciences, two or three of them stated publicly that they intended to vote, and did vote, against their conscience; and their action was no doubt instigated by the Prime Minister, who wished at all hazards to destroy the Deakin Government.

Mr. REID. That is untrue.

Mr. SPEAKER.-Will the Prime Minister withdraw that statement?

Mr. REID. I will say, not that it is untrue, but that it is absolutely without foundation.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-I do not know if the right honorable gentleman wishes it to be inferred that the statement that some honorable members said that they would vote against their consciences is without foundation, because Hansard will bear me out in it.

Mr. REID. They did not do so at my instigation.

Mr. REID. The honorable member never had a conscience.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-And if I had been a follower of his, and had such a convenient conscience, I would have done as they did, acting on the hint he had given; but my conscience is not so elastic. Although the right honorable gentleman voted with the Deakin Government, he was hoping that his followers would vote against it, and was instigating them to do so. Mr. REID.-No.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-That was the reason of the defeat of that Administration.

Mr. REID.--What the honorable member suggests was never done by me.

Sir JOHN FORREST.-What about those who left the Deakin Government, and voted against it?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-If the right honorable member has a conscience, which I begin to doubt, and he had been returned pledged to vote in any specific way, would he not vote in that way? Take the honorable and learned member for Darling Downs, who was as good a supporter of the Deakin Administration as they had, but

who was pledged to his constituents to vote

for the inclusion of railway servants in the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill

Mr. MAUGER.-And who voted in the same way before the election as he did afterwards.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-Yes. Does the

right honorable member refer to that honorable and learned member?

Sir JOHN FORREST.-He was pledged to support the Deakin Government.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-He was also pledged to the inclusion of the railway servants in the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill. When we recollect that it was only with the assistance of the Labour Party that the Barton Government, and afterwards the Deakin Government, were able to remain in office for three years, it ill becomes any member of either of those Ministries to object to the action recently taken by the members of the Watson Government.

Sir JOHN FORREST.-Who turned us out of office?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-We were turned out as the result of a combination of forces,

and the present Prime Minister had most to do with that. The right honorable gentleman was practically waiting on the steps of Government House in the expectation that he would be sent for to form a Government.

Mr. JOHNSON. He voted with the Deakin Government.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-He often votes against his conscience.

Mr. PAGE. I thought that the honorable member said that the Prime Minister had no conscience?

Mr. PAGE. No one in the House could build a bridge strong enough to carry the Prime Minister.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-What was the cause of the late Government going out of office?

Mr. RFID. Their sense of duty.

Mr. MAHON.-That consideration will never induce the right honorable gentleman to leave office.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-I have taken the trouble to make a small précis of the facts in order that the public may clearly

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-He has a very understand the circumstances under which elastic one. the Government went out of office.

Mr. CONROY.-I understood the honorable member to say that the Prime Minister voted against the honorable member's conscience.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-I am very glad that the honorable and learned member credits me with the possession of a conscience. The Prime Minister, after having waited about-after the Deakin Government had been defeated-in the expectation that he would be called upon to form a new Ministry, went to the press and complained like a great schoolboy that he, and not the honorable member for Bland, should have been sent for by His Excellency the Governor-General.

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Mr. REID. I certainly did not run. Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-And telling all his friends "I shall be the Prime Minister to-morrow." Altogether his conduct was childish in the extreme. When he found

that the honorable member for Bland had succeeded in forming a Ministry, he at once began to intrigue against them, because he felt quite sure that he would have the next show. How did he achieve success? By one of the worst actions-I would almost venture to call it a trick-of which a politician has ever been guilty?

Mr. REID. The vote was taken in a full House. There are no more bridges to be built here.

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Mr. REID. What Government? Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-The last Government, which the right honorable gentleman intrigued against, and tilted out of office by a trick. The right honorable gen. tleman made statements to His Excellency the Governor-General that will not be borne out, and thereby induced His Excellency to give him the Commission to form an Administration.

Mr. JOHNSON.-That showed His Excellency's good sense.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE. It showed the anxiety of the Prime Minister for office, and nothing else. The Conciliation and Arbitration Bill, as introduced by the Deakin Government contained the fortyeighth clause with a provision for preference to unionists, without any qualification, and precisely the same words are contained in the clause at present, namely, "preference shall be given to such members (meaning unionists) other things being introduced by the Deakin Government, and equal." Those words were in the Bill as fathered by the right honorable member for Swan.

Sir JOHN FORREST.-That is most unfair.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-The Bill was introduced by the Deakin Government, and the honorable member as a member of that Ministry had to father it.

Sir JOHN FORREST.-Did the honorable member father the inclusion of the railway servants?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-Unfortunately I had to vote against them when in the Government, but I voted in their favour when I was free to do so.

Sir JOHN FORREST.-My position, in the matter of preference, is exactly the same as that of the honorable member in regard to railway servants.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-The Bill, as introduced by the Deakin Government, also contained a provision that its scope should extend to the agricultural, viticultural, horticultural, and dairying industries.

diately after the honorable member for Bland had announced the formation of the Ministry. The honorable and learned member for Ballarat also said

I think we must all agree that if (the Go

Sir JOHN FORREST.-I suppose I was al- vernment) can only be maintained, even temways in favour of that provision, too?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-I do not know. Thank goodness, I am not the right honorable gentleman's keeper. When the Bill left the hands of the Watson Government it did not contain the provision including agricultural labourers and others, but it embraced the provision for preference to unionists, modified by the proviso inserted at the instance of the Minister of Defence, which was as follows:

Provided that no such preference shall be directed to be given unless the application for such preference is, in the opinion of the Court, approved by a majority of those affected by the award who have interests in common with the applicants.

The alternative amendment, proposed by the honorable member for Bland was

The Court, before directing that preference shall be given to the members of an organization, shall be satisfied that the organization substantially represents the industry affected in point of the numbers and competence of its members.

It was on the question as to whether the Bill should be recommitted with a view to the consideration of the amendment proposed by the then Government, that the Ministry were defeated. They were denied that consideration which is always extended to the Government by an honorable Opposition. That is the point upon which I join issue with the Minister of Trade and Customs, who stated that the late Government had received fair play. I consider that they were treated most unfairly.

Mr. REID. They were defeated by thirty-eight votes to thirty-six, and I consider that that is fair play.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-They were defeated with the assistance of the vote of the honorable and learned member for Ballarat, who had introduced the Bill containing the preference provision, and also the proposal that the agricultural industry should be brought within the scope of the The honorable and learned member voted against the provision of his own Bill. The honorable and learned member for Ballarat stated that he had been charged, on behalf of the Opposition, to assure the Watson Government that the utmost fair play would be extended to them. That statement was made imme

measure.

potarily, by that honorable granting of fair play to which I have already alluded, by that extension of consideration from one side of the House to the other, which enables us to discharge our common duties to the public.

In the face of that statement, I do not think that it redounded to the credit of the honorable and learned member for Ballarat, or of those who were following him, when they turned round and failed to extend the fair play that was promised when the Watson Government took office.

Sir JOHN FORREST.-It all depends on what the honorable member calls fair play.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-I do not think that fair play was extended to the Watson Government at any time. I do not complain of the action of the right honorable gentleman, because at the very first opportunity that presented itself, he attacked the Government in the most vigorous and

vicious wav.

Sir JOHN FORREST.-Not in a vicious.

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Sir WILLIAM LYNE. I have just read the assurance given by the honorable and learned member for Ballarat. That statement was made after the formation of the Ministry was announced in this House. I have stated the circumstances as concisely as possible, in order that the general public may understand the position that has been taken up by certain members of the Opposition, and the manner in which the late Government were ousted from office.

Mr. KENNEDY. They occupied the Treasury benches for six weeks after their defeat.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-I think that
They

that is an unfair way of putting it.
stayed on the Treasury benches for six
weeks after the amendment proposed by
the Minister of Defence was carried. The
leader of the late Government was per-
fectly justified in stating that he could not
accept the amendment. and that he would

ask the House to recommit the clause in order that the whole matter might be reconsidered.

Mr. KENNEDY.-Did the Deakin Government do that?

by the Minister of Trade and Customs, I venture to think that his remarks were instigated by some other mind, who desired that the split in the Protectionist Party should continue and widen. The Minister dealt with several subjects with each of which I shall deal separately. First of

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-We had not a similar opportunity. Sir JOHN FORREST. We could have all, he was rather indignant done it.

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Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-I dare say we could. The vote upon the amendment proposed by the Minister of Defence was taken in a small House and without debate, and, in view of the fact that the decision was arrived at upon a catch vote, the late Prime Minister was perfectly justified in asking for its reconsideration, and for a fuller debate. The present Prime Minister, who voted with the Deakin Govern ment against the inclusion of the railway servants within the scope of the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill, has accepted the measure with that and other provisions which were highly objectionable in his eyes, and has sent it on to the Senate, presumably with a desire that it shall become law. I should like to know what the public will think of a Prime Minister who can so absolutely reverse all that he has formerly done in order to secure office.

Mr. REID. This is very funny.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-The right hon orable gentleman has spoken very strongly upon the subject of States rights, but I should like to know where the States rights party is now? They seem to have very easy consciences with regard to States rights, the inclusion of railway servants within the scope of the Conciliation and Arbitration Bill, and, in fact, everything else in connexion with that measure. I would ask honorable members: What is the present position? The Protectionist Party is severed in twain, and this will probably lead to its destruction.

Sir JOHN FORREST.-The honorable member has left it.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-I shall deal with that particular question presently. I do not think that we are the seceders, but that the section of the party which is supporting the Government has deserted its principles. As a matter of fact, the right honorable member for Swan had no right whatever, at any time, to claim to belong to the Protectionist Party, because throughout his connexion with the Barton and Deakin Ministries he stood by himself, and never was a Protectionist. Turning for a moment to the speech delivered last night

because

one honorable member stated that he had not been in favour of granting the franchise to women. The Prime Minister was in favour of that reform, but, strange to say, he never passed any measure relating to it. Had he occupied his present position at the commencement of the Commonwealth that law would not now have been placed upon the statutebook of the Commonwealth, because my experience of the right honorable gentleman in the New South Wales Legislature leads me to say that had he remained in State politics until to-day he would never have extended the franchise to the women there. I venture to affirm that if he had had his way the suffrage would never have been extended to the women of Australia. It is a fortunate circumstance that when the first Commonwealth Parliament met, a Government was in power which insisted upon extending the franchise to the women of this continent, despite the opposition of some honorable members. I have already pointed out the unfair treatment which was meted out to the last Government. Last evening the Minister of Trade and Customs dealt with the question of old-age pensions, but I do not think that his heart is in his subject. Certainly the heart of his leader is not in it. When the present Prime Minister was in State politics. and had an opportunity of submitting a Bill relating to that matter to the New South Wales Parliament, he failed to take any action. The question of old-age pensions is one, however, which cannot be permitted to lie dormant. It must be dealt with by this Parliament in some way or other, in fairness to the continent of Australia. It is all very well to urge that it is a State matter, but it must be recollected that at the present time two of the largest States have old-age pensions schemes in operation, and I think that the Commonwealth should take some further action. My own opinion is that, if we cannot pass a law without first obtaining the consent of the States, then New South Wales and Victoria should allow the money now being disbursed by them for the payment of old-age pensions to be deducted by the Commonwealth from the Customs and

and

Excise revenue instead of being re-
turned to them in accordance with
financial provisions of the Con-
stitution. If they agreed to that arrange
ment, we could enact a uniform law for the
whole of Australia. But unless an energetic
move be made, such a consummation will
not be reached. I know that it has been
held up as a bogy that the money re-
quired for the payment of a national scheme
of oid-age pensions must be raised by direct
taxation. Well, in New South Wales, and
most of the other States, a land tax is already
operative. What is the difference between
a land tax which is imposed by the States
and a land tax which is imposed by the
Commonwealth Government?
Mr. McLEAN.-Is there not a difference there must have been!
in duplicating it?

at once obtain everything which they de-
sired, but I happen to know that the very
provisions to which he referred so graphi-
cally in attacking the honorable
learned member for Indi, are not to be
taken advantage of in the way that he sug-
gested. For instance, in respect of the
provision that each member of the alliance
is to be allowed to vote on the Tariff as to
whether a high duty or a low duty shall
be imposed-

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-The States might repeal their own land taxation, if it was necessary for the Federal Government to raise the money to pay old-age pensions. Mr. MCLEAN.-The honorable member is advocating a duplication of the tax.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-I am not. There should be no taxation for the sake of taxation, and there should be no land tax upon small land-owners. Last evening, the Minister of Trade and Customs tried very unfairly to put words into the mouths of several honorable members. I never before heard him treat his subject in such an unjust way. I am not in favour of duplicating land taxation. But the land taxes imposed by the States can be removed by them, if that is to be urged as an objection to a national system of old-age pensions. That is a matter for the States to consider.

Mr. CONROY.-Suppose that the States. will not repeal their land taxes?

Mr. MCLEAN.-Or any duty at all.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-No. Members are to be allowed to vote upon the question as to whether a high or a low duty shall be imposed upon specific proposals.

Mr. REID. What a lot of intriguing

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-It is the Prime Minister who has done the intriguing in his little room. He must not talk of intriguing. He has attempted bribery, too. Mr. REID. I have not enough money for that.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-I do not refer to money. The statement of the Minister of Trade and Customs, in regard to the Manufactures Encouragement Bill, was not correct. The arrangement is that all members of the alliance shall vote for the taking of that Bill into Committee, and that those who desire the industry to be controlled by the State shall have an opportunity of voting in that way. If, however, they are defeated, they are not to destroy the Bill, but are to assist in passing it in another form. Surely that constitutes a great advance?

Mr. JOSEPH COOK.-Does the statement of the honorable member refer to the whole of the alliance?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-Yes.

Mr. MCLEAN.-Who killed the proposal of the Barton Government?

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-It was not killed; it was postponed, because there was not a majority in favour of the industry being controlled by private enterprise.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-The States should be asked to allow the necessary money for the payment of old-age pensions claims to be deducted from the Customs revenue, with a view to avoiding the duplica tion of land taxation, The Minister of Mr. JOSEPH COOK.-Do I understand Trade and Customs also referred to the al- that the whole of the alliance will vote in liance which has been entered into between | that way? the Labour Party and the Liberal Protectionists. He declared that there were only three planks in the platform of that alliance, and that the protectionist section of it had received no concessions whatever. I venture to think that if he will only be fair, and allow his mind to reason in the ordinary way, he will find that the protectionists have secured a great deal. It is not to be supposed for a moment that they could

Sir WILLIAM LYNE.-That is the arrangement, and effect will be given to it. Consequently the Minister of Trade and Customs was wrong in his statement to the House. I have been asked who killed the measure submitted by the Barton Government? There were a good many who rendered assistance in that direction, and the strongest assistance came from the leader of the present Government. Upon many

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