Mr. BAUMAN. What happened?

Mr. ROBERTS. Well, I told him that I was in need of some money because I had spent a lot of money on my case, which I had.

So he met me in front of the Children's Hospital at Twelfth and W. So I asked him for some money. I asked him for $500 and he said he didn't have it then; he'd make arrangements to get it. So he met me the next day and gave it to me. I met him at Eighteenth and S.

Mr. BAUMAN. Where was that?

Mr. ROBERTS. I met him at 18th and S Streets NW.

Mr. BAUMAN. In Washington?

Mr. ROBERTS. In Washington, D. C.

Mr. BAUMAN. Now during the spring of 1951 did you have any conversation with him about an individual by the name of Calvin Davis?

Mr. ROBERTS. No; that was in the summer. That was in the summer of 1951 that I had the conversation about Davis.

Mr. BAUMAN. Would you tell the committee what that was, please? Mr. ROBERTS. Well, Davis-I met Davis on Eighteenth and V and he told me that he had been told to see me. So he gave me $200 and I gave it to him, I gave it to Lieutenant Carper, and he gave me $20 for it.

Mr. BAUMAN. He did what?

Mr. ROBERTS. I got $20 from him when I gave him the $200.

Mr. BAUMAN. Do you know any person who was paying Taylor other than yourself during this period?

Mr. ROBERTS. Well, I couldn't say positively; I know what I've heard, but I mean I couldn't positively say.

Mr. BAUMAN. Did you know anybody who told you that he or she had paid Taylor during this period?

Mr. ROBERTS. Yes.

Mr. BAUMAN. Who was it?

Mr. ROBERTS. Do I have to answer that question?

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Bauman, in the Chair's opinion the witness should not be required to answer that question.

Mr. BAUMAN. I want to express my appreciation to the Chair for making that ruling. I would much rather not press him on that. It is not necessary for you to answer the question.

Mr. ROBERTS. Thank you.

Mr. BAUMAN. Now in 1948 did you get a telephone call from Mr. Carper relating to a narcotics seller named Bull Leach?

Mr. ROBERTS. Yes; I did.

Mr. BAUMAN. Will you tell the committee please what that was about?

Mr. ROBERTS. Well, he told me that he had Bull in a car and had taken 7 ounces of heroin from him, and he said that Bull had told him that he was dealing with me.

So he asked me about it and I told him, well, he wasn't selling it for me. He was buying it from me, and to give it back to him. So he told me he would give it back to him, and he did.

Mr. BAUMAN. I believe you testified before about that Ann Simcoe situation in very brief, sketchy terms. Would you tell us the whole story of that Ann Simcoe case about which just talked about a few

Mr. ROBERTS. Well, from what I can gather, it was Dixon's. I didn't ask him any too much about it.

Mr. BAUMAN. Did you have any idea?

Mr. ROBERTS. I didn't pay too much attention to it.

Mr. BAUMAN. Tell me, Mr. Roberts, do you have any idea of the total amount of money that you paid Mr. Carper over the years?

Mr. ROBERTS. Well, I had figured I guess I paid him in the course of a year, I guess about maybe eighteen or twenty thousand dollars,

or more.

up.

Mr. BAUMAN. In the course of a year?

Mr. ROBERTS. In the course of a year; yes. I mean when it adds

Mr. BAUMAN. And I take it you are referring to all the extras and things in that figure?

Mr. ROBERTS. Well, I was referring to that.

Mr. BAUMAN. Now, the first five or six payments, I believe you testified that you were paying at the rate of $500 a month; is that right?

Mr. ROBERTS. Five hundred a month.

Mr. BAUMAN. So we would get between $2,500 and $3,000 for that first period, the first 5 or 6 months' period?

Mr. ROBERTS. Well, I never counted it. I didn't pay too much attention to it. All I did was give the money and I didn't go into any mathematics about it.

Mr. BAUMAN. But thereafter, though, after about June of 1948 for over a year, for approximately 15 months after that you were paying him at least $1,000 a month on account of your regular payments; right?

Mr. ROBERTS. Or more.

Mr. BAUMAN. Or more?
Mr. ROBERTS. Yes.

Mr. BAUMAN. So that the minimum would have been 15,000, and I believe in using your own figure, you took a figure something like 1,600 a month or 1,500 a month as your average estimate on what you paid Carper; right?

Mr. ROBERTS. To be frank, I just didn't pay any attention. I give it to him and that was all, but I mean I've had time to think about it, but I hadn't made any note of it.

Senator HUNT. What you mean is you didn't keep books on it?
Mr. ROBERTS. No, I didn't.

Mr. BAUMAN. Did you ever tell your wife that the ante had gone up on this protection money?

Mr. ROBERTS. Well, no, I didn't tell her because she was a little fussy, so I didn't say anything to her about it. I just went on and paid it. I just let her make up the 500 and the other money, I either collected it or took it out of my own pocket.

Mr. BAUMAN. Other than that, though, she kept the money; is that right?

Mr. ROBERTS. She always kept the money; yes.

Mr. BAUMAN. Now, after you were out on appeal bond sometime during the spring of 1951 did you see Mr. Carper?

Mr. ROBERTS. Yes, I saw him. I got out in June and I saw him

I

fo

Mr. BAUMAN. What happened?

Mr. ROBERTS. Well, I told him that I was in need of some money because I had spent a lot of money on my case, which I had.

So he met me in front of the Children's Hospital at Twelfth and W. So I asked him for some money. I asked him for $500 and he said he didn't have it then; he'd make arrangements to get it. So he met me the next day and gave it to me. I met him at Eighteenth

and S.

Mr. BAUMAN. Where was that?

Mr. ROBERTS. I met him at 18th and S Streets NW.

Mr. BAUMAN. In Washington?

Mr. ROBERTS. In Washington, D. C.

Mr. BAUMAN. Now during the spring of 1951 did you have any conversation with him about an individual by the name of Calvin Davis?

Mr. ROBERTS. No; that was in the summer. That was in the summer of 1951 that I had the conversation about Davis.

Mr. BAUMAN. Would you tell the committee what that was, please? Mr. ROBERTS. Well, Davis-I met Davis on Eighteenth and V and he told me that he had been told to see me. So he gave me $200 and I gave it to him, I gave it to Lieutenant Carper, and he gave me $20 for it.

Mr. BAUMAN. He did what?

Mr. ROBERTS. I got $20 from him when I gave him the $200.

Mr. BAUMAN. Do you know any person who was paying Taylor other than yourself during this period?

Mr. ROBERTS. Well, I couldn't say positively; I know what I've heard, but I mean I couldn't positively say.

Mr. BAUMAN. Did you know anybody who told you that he or she had paid Taylor during this period?

Mr. ROBERTS. Yes.

Mr. BAUMAN. Who was it?

Mr. ROBERTS. Do I have to answer that question?

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Bauman, in the Chair's opinion the witness should not be required to answer that question.

Mr. BAUMAN. I want to express my appreciation to the Chair for making that ruling. I would much rather not press him on that. It is not necessary for you to answer the question.

Mr. ROBERTS. Thank you.

Mr. BAUMAN. Now in 1948 did you get a telephone call from Mr. Carper relating to a narcotics seller named Bull Leach?

Mr. ROBERTS. Yes; I did.

Mr. BAUMAN. Will you tell the committee please what that was about?

Mr. ROBERTS. Well, he told me that he had Bull in a car and had taken 7 ounces of heroin from him, and he said that Bull had told him that he was dealing with me.

So he asked me about it and I told him, well, he wasn't selling it for me. He was buying it from me, and to give it back to him. So he told me he would give it back to him, and he did.

Mr. BAUMAN. I believe you testified before about that Ann Simcoe situation in very brief, sketchy terms. Would you tell us the whole story of that Ann Simcoe case about which just talked about a few

Mr. ROBERTS. It wasn't any too much story. He called me and told me to come down, that she had been arrested the night before, but he didn't give me the officer's name that arrested her, and he told me to bring some money when I came, and I got $200 from my wife and I went and she was there.

She was sitting in his office, and I asked him about it and he explained it to me, which it wasn't too much. I think it was a patrolman that arrested her, and I asked him what he was going to do about it and he said he'd take care of it, which he did, and I gave him the 200. Then he left and went to the Commissioner-I always thought that he went to the district attorney's.

Mr. BAUMAN. Well, he went either to the district attorney or the Commissioner, right?

Mr. ROBERTS. To my opinion. I hadn't thought about the Commissioner.

Mr. BAUMAN. Go ahead.

Mr. ROBERTS. And when he came back, he gave me the 5 ounces they had taken from her and I gave them back to her.

Mr. BAUMAN. He gave you the 5 ounces that he had taken from Ann Simcoe?

Mr. ROBERTS. He gave it to me.

I gave it back to her.

Mr. BAUMAN. Now, Mr. Roberts, do you know a man by the name of Jesse Jeffers?

Mr. ROBERTS. Yes; I do.

Mr. BAUMAN. And in September of 1949 was he living at the Dunbar Hotel?

Mr. ROBERTS. He was.

Mr. BAUMAN. Tell the committee what happened in connection with Jesse Jeffers in September of 1949.

Mr. ROBERTS. Well, I heard he had some narcotics and cocaine which I wanted, and he was out of town at the time. So I made arrangements with the house detective there to get it for me, and he had been begging $4 and $5 at a time and sometimes 20 and he never paid me back, so I thought he owed me a favor.

So when I talked to him I told him what I wanted him to do, and I said, "Well, it's a chance for you to make 500 instead of the petty larceny begs you've been putting on." So he said that he didn't have the master key at that time but he would get it later on and for me to meet him at 4 o'clock.

Mr. BAUMAN. Where?

Mr. ROBERTS. Back at the Dunbar Hotel. So I went back home. I gave him my telephone number in order for him to call me.

So I went back home about 3 o'clock, some time around then. Anyway, it was about an hour or so before I was supposed to go back, I got this call and told me not to show.

Mr. BAUMAN. Who called you?

Mr. ROBERTS. Lieutenant Carper called me and told me not to come to the Dunbar Hotel because Jackie crossed me up.

Mr. BAUMAN. What did he say to you to the best of your recollection?

Mr. ROBERTS. He told me was I crazy, why didn't I see him. He said he would have gotten it for me, but for me not to show at 4 o'clock

Mr. BAUMAN. And of course at 4 o'clock you did not go to the Dunbar Hotel?

Mr. ROBERTS. Well, at 4 o'clock I called my doctor and got some sleep medicine and went to sleep.

Mr. BAUMAN. Now when did you make your last payment to Lieutenant Carper?

Mr. ROBERTS. In 1949, October the 1st.

Mr. BAUMAN. What was the amount of that payment?

Mr. ROBERTS. I gave him a little over $1,000, about one thousand fifty, or maybe a little more. It wasn't too much more.

Mr. BAUMAN. When did you next hear from Lieutenant Carper during that month?

Mr. ROBERTS. Well, I had gone to a funeral. A friend of mine, a soldier, died and we went to Arlington Cemetery and buried him, and when I got back home, my wife took the car over to Capital Cadillac, and while she was out I got this call, and he said, "Well, what have you been doing?" I said, "Nothing."

Mr. BAUMAN. Who said this?

Mr. ROBERTS. Lieutenant Carper said, "What have you been doing?" I said, "Nothing." So I said, "What's the matter?" He said, "Well, you are in trouble." He said, "Get out of town and stay about a year. Maybe I will be able to straighten it by that time."

So then he said, "Somebody has gotten a buy on you." I said, "Why didn't you let me know?" I said, "You just got my money." He said it was over his head, and he didn't know about it himself until too late. So he told me to leave.

So I called over to the Cadillac place and told her to go to a friend of hers house, and I went down in Maryland, but it was so dull down there I came back the next day.

So when I came back I called Lieutenant Carper and told him that I was back in town. So he said, "Well, you are awfully bull headed.” So I said-pardon me. I said "I've been giving you my money, you ought to protect me." So he asked me where I was staying and I told him.

So then a day or so later he called me and he said, "Well, why don't you let me make the arrest and you can meet me at Sixteenth and Florida Avenue and I'll rough you up a little and take you on in," and I said, "No dice" because I didn't know what he would do.

Mr. BAUMAN. What did you think he might do?

Mr. ROBERTS. I told him-well, I don't know. After he had crossed me up, why I didn't know too much about what was happening. So I wouldn't go.

Several days later he called me and he said, "You better get out of there. They'll be up there around 8 o'clock." That was 6 o'clock in the evening.

So I was in bed watching television. So I said, "Well, O. K." So he said, "Well, you better hurry up because you don't have any too much time." So I said, "O. K." So I went out and went across the street and sit on the lawn on some chairs the doctor has over there.

So about 8 o'clock they came, the officers did, and they went in, went into the apartment, looked it all over. Then they went upstairs on the roof, and I was sitting there watching it. So then after they came