And so nobody talks to anybody now. So you have a man who is a fine guy but philosophically I have great disagreement with-Mr. Hatch-on the one side, and you have got Senator Kennedy on the other, and never the twain shall meet. So you give the people one of two alternatives, and they are taking a shot at the other one. They know one does not work, so they are going to try the other. That is what I think.

Probably my not being at the Lefever meeting will enhance the prospect of him being defeated. I do not know. But I really thank you for your time. I am going to continue to pick your brain, if I can, as we go along in this thing.

As my dear old friend, the Republican conservative Henry Fulsom used to say: "Politics is the art of the practical. Unfortunately, we are not very practical."

Mr. ORFIELD. Before we finish, Senator, perhaps I could just make one brief remark. In earlier testimony today, there was a claim that the courts in St. Louis are a designing a mandatory plan.

I am the court-appointed expert there, and I know neither judge has been designing a mandatory plan, nor have the suburbs been joined in the case at this stage. They are trying to talk about voluntary approaches and I would just like to make the record straight on that.

Senator BIDEN. As I said, there are several questions, including some that I have. I wanted to know your view about some of the voluntary incentive plans. The most innovative one-and I do not know how reasonable it is-is the college tuition plan. I would like your views on that. We will submit them for the record.

[The material supplied follows:]

I have recommended to the court in St. Louis that there be a trial of the Justice Department's proposal that students voluntarily transferring across the city-suburban boundary line to increase desegregation be given a half-year of free college tuition in a state college for each year in a desegregated school. An outline of possible procedures for testing the impact of this approach on a small scale will be submitted to the court by researchers from Johns Hopkins University in July, 1981.

Senator BIDEN. I thank you for your indulgence in hearing me go on for the last 10 to 15 minutes, but I say it because I respect you very much, and I know that you represent a community of intellectuals in this country that maybe has not been as exposed as much. There is a middle position. They are not all one way or the other. They are not all, "hang 'em," or, "rehabilitate 'em." We are not all saying: "Busing is good and all the programs that go with it," or: "Busing is bad, and, by the way, let's get rid of the programs." There are some folks who are swimming in between and not getting very far, like me. Thank you.

Mr. ORFIELD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator BIDEN. The hearing is adjourned.

[Additional material subsequently submitted follows:]

GALLUP POLL-WHITES, BLACKS SPLIT ON BUSING ISSUE

(By George Gallup)

PRINCETON, N.J.-The Reagan administration's position on the key domestic issue-busing to achieve racial balance in the schools—is in line with the views of

the majority of white Americans. The latest Gallup survey shows opinion among whites 4-to-1 in opposition to busing.

Blacks, however, are 2-to-1 in favor of this means of achieving a better racial balance in the schools.

While the majority of whites oppose busing, factors other than racial prejudice appear to underlie much of their opposition, as determined by a series of questions on attitudes toward racially-mixed schools.

For example, even among the 45 percent of white parents who say they have NO OBJECTIONS to their children attending racially-integrated schools, eight in 10 (78 percent) are opposed to busing as a means of achieving racial balance. Clearly, much opposition can be explained in terms of objections to the distance children have to be bused and to other factors.

Since 1964, when the Supreme Court ruling went into effect, the Court has been involved in more than 500 school desegregation cases.

On Nov. 17, the Senate passed a bill that would have prohibited the Justice Department from intervening in school desegregation cases involving busing. The Senate bill-which was never approved-would not have actually outlawed busing but by requiring private parties to bring busing cases to court, it would have made it difficult and impractical for pro-busing groups to use busing as an effective antidiscrimination tool.

Following is the question asked to determine the public's attitudes toward busing: "Do you favor or oppose busing children to achieve a better racial balance in the schools?"

Aside from basic dichotomy in the views of whites and blacks, majority opposition toward busing is found in all key demographic groups. However, comparatively more support for busing is shown by young adults and Democrats. Following are the findings in tabular form:

Following are the questions asked white parents to determine their attitudes toward sending their children to integrated schools:

"Would you, yourself, have any objection to sending your children to a school where a few of the children are black? Where half are black? Where more than half of the children are black?"

The results show only 5 percent of white parents would object to sending their children to a school where only a few of their fellow students were black. The figure rises to 23 percent where one-half the students are black and to 55 percent where more than half are black. These figures are similar in racial tolerance from a 1963 Gallup study.

Here are the results:

The findings reported today are based on in-person interviews with 1,549 adults, 18 and older, of whom 1,381 were white and 149 were black. The interviews were conducted in more than 300 scientifically-selected localities across the nation during the period Dec. 5-8, 1980.

For results based on the full sample, one can say with 95 percent confidence that the error attributable to sampling and other random effects could be three percentage points in either direction. For results based on the white subsample, a 4 percent margin of error should be allowed, for results based on the black subsample, a 10 percent margin of error should be allowed.

LOUIS HARRIS AND ASSOCIATES, INC.-A STUDY OF ATTITUDES TOWAard Racial aND RELIGIOUS MINORITIES AND TOWARD WOMEN

A Louis Harris poll for the National Conference of Christians and Jews found that whites are far more tolerant of integration than they were in 1963, less given to racial stereotyping and ready to accept wide-ranging affirmative-action programs. Thirty-five percent of the whites surveyed said they favored "full racial integration," and another 42 percent favored integration in "some areas." Only 14 percent of whites said they would be upset if blacks moved into their neighborhoods, compared with 33 percent in 1963; 54 percent said they would not mind at all. On school busing for racial integration 85 percent of whites still oppose busing (as do 43 percent of blacks) but the study found that 56 percent of white parents whose children have been bused consider the experience "very satisfactory." And 39 percent of white parents said there were no complaints from their children. "The irony of busing to achieve racial balance," the study concludes, "is that rarely has there been a case where so many have been opposed to an idea which appears not to work badly at all when put into practice."

Of course, the one issue which has stirred up the most visible controversy in race relations over the past decade centers on public education, particularly the enflamed question of busing children to achieve racial balance in the schools. On the surface, support for such busing has simply not caught on in America. By a narrow 43-42 percent, a plurality of blacks now oppose busing, a turnaround from the 50-30 percent margin they favored it by back in 1963. Among whites, an overwhelming 85-9 percent majority also oppose busing, not significantly different from the consistent opposition of whites to busing since the idea was first launched in the 1960's. However, the evidence from those parents whose children have been bused is not nearly as negative or the predisposition to oppose this solution to integration in education would indicate. Among blacks, 35 percent nationwide report that a child in their family has been bused. In the South, fully 46 percent of black families have had this busing experience. Among whites, a much lower 10 percent report children in their families have been bused.

Yet, when both blacks and whites whose children have been the objects of the busing experiment are asked how it all worked out, the results do not indicate widespread outrage or trouble:

REACTION OF BLACK AND WHITE PARENTS WHOSE CHILDREN HAVE BEEN BUSED FOR RACIAL BALANCE (BASE: CHILDREN HAVE BEEN BUSED)

Question. How did the busing of children in your family to go to school with white/black children work out-very satisfactory, only partly satisfactory, or not satisfactory?

Basically, roughly 6 in 10 families report a "very satisfactory" experience for their children in their busing to achieve racial balance, with 8 in 10 expressing a positive reaction overall. Put another way, no more than 8 percent of the blacks and 16 percent of the whites feel that having their children bused has not been a satisfactory experience.

As the following table indicates, both blacks and whites report remarkably parallel reasons for their views about the busing experiment:

REASONS BLACKS AND WHITES GIVE FOR FINDING THEIR BUSING EXPERIENCE
SATISFACTORY OR NOT (BASE: CHILDREN HAVE BEEN BUSED)

Question. Why do you feel that way about the busing of children in your family?

Note: Some people volunteered more than one answer, so colums add to more than 100 percent.

28

19

16

8969

39

16

8

6

5

3

3

23334

2

3

3

3

8

12

8

29

The litany of no real complaints from the children who have been bused, the ability of white and black children to get along, and the relatively small minority who report fighting and trouble all add up to a quite different picture of how busing has in fact worked out than one might have drawn from the confrontation cases which have received so much attention in the media.

OBSERVATION

The irony of busing to achieve racial balance is that rarely has there been a case where so many have been opposed to an idea, which appears not to work badly at all when put into practice, at least from the testimony of families who have lived through the experience. While it is obvious that there are whites who are still emotionally disturbed at the whole idea, there are incidents of outbreaks of trouble, there are whites who think the distances are too far to travel, and people would never have opted for the experiment in the first place; nontheless the almost automatic claim that "busing is a disaster" simply will not hold in the face of the facts from this study. And, among blacks, there is a clear sense that their children are going to better schools, which was the basic intent of the courts in ordering busing in the first place.

The bedrock reason given for having black and white children go to school together is that black children would do better in school if they attend integrated schools. When asked, blacks feel that black children would do better in such schools by a margin of 62-7 percent, with 25 percent saying they would do about the same as they do now. Among whites, 49 percent acknowledge that black children would do better in integrated schools, only 11 percent worse, and 32 percent no real difference. Significantly, the number of whites who feel that blacks would do better going to school with whites has risen from 28 percent to 49 percent since 1966. Thus, 71 percent of all blacks say they would either like to see their children go to school with whites or that they already do (13 percent say it is happening now). This 71 percent number has not changed in 15 years (70 percent in 1963).

Among whites, the problem is cast in somewhat different terms. The charge has been made repeatedly that white children would suffer if they attended school with blacks, that the black children would hold back the whites. However, when asked about this, by 67-26 percent, a solid majority of whites deny their children would suffer. The number who worry about this problem among white parents has gone up from 19 percent to 26 percent since 1963, but the two-thirds majority who feel this is not the case has not changed much.

When asked directly if they would like to see the children in their family go to school with blacks, only 14 percent of whites object. . . .