Now, then, we have had only a part year on that, so that $52,000 for 1931 is enough, but we ought to have $55,800 for 1932. The CHAIRMAN. You think that your rental expenses will be as high in the next year as they have been? Mr. CARR. It is the same building, sir; and The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I know that. Mr. CARR. And, we are under contract to pay $55,800. Senator MCKELLAR. What about the new building? Mr. CARR. The new building, they are just, I think, about ready to begin. They are tearing down the old one. Senator BINGHAM. They are tearing down the place where the United States Court used to be held, and also where the consulate was. Mr. CARR. Yes; and on that site they are going to erect a new building authorized by the Foreign Service Building Commission. Senator MCKELLAR. It ought to be completed this year? Mr. CARR. NO; I don't think it will be completed for two years. Mr. CARR. I think that I can not tell you that. Of course, it can only go from fiscal year to fiscal year, because we have got a contract-yes; it must be a contract for two years, I am sure. The CHAIRMAN. So that you think you need this $55,000? The CHAIRMAN. To take care of this contract? Mr. CARR. To take care of the contract. If it is not appropriated, then we will have to reduce somewhere else, and take the money away from somebody else in order to carry out that contract, because that is the only place in which we can take care of our agencies in Shanghai. Senator BINGHAM. That houses all of the agencies? Mr. CARR. That houses all of the agencies, except the minister. Senator BINGHAM. Does it house the Commerce Department's people too? Mr. CARR. It houses the Commerce people too. Senator BINGHAM. So that you will save money on the rental buildings, by using that building? Mr. CARR. I think so, Senator. I say, that I think that they will be in the same building. Senator BINGHAM. The Commerce Department attachés, I think, are in a separate building, another quite separate building. Mr. CARR. Maybe so, Senator, but we will house, I know, in this building, the consul general and the Public Health officers, and so forth. Senator MCKELLAR. Must they stay in Shanghai, live in Shanghai? Mr. CARR. The minister is in Shanghai a part of the time; in Peking a part of the time, Shanghai a part of the time, and Nanking, depending on where the Government happens to be. Senator BINGAHм. It is a very difficult situation. Mr. CARR. Exceedingly. Senator BINGHAM. And you will find the Government officials in Shanghai, and they travel a thousand miles away to Nanking. There place to live at Nanking. Most of the Chinese officials live in Shanghai and do business in Nanking. is no Mr. CARR. As a matter of fact we are now trying to find out whether we can spend our present contingent allowance for some temporary building, whether we can get some money out of the build ing fund, for a temporary building at Nanking, because there is absolutely no place for us to house some additional personnel that is needed to go down there. Senator BINGHAM. There is not even a decent hotel in Nanking or any place to live. Mr. CARR. No, except the consulate building, and that is filled. Senator BINGHAM. That is not a large building? Mr. CARR. No; very small. The CHAIRMAN. Proceed, Mr. Carr. CIVILIAN EMPLOYEES—RENT, LIGHT, heat Senator BINGHAM. Just on that item, may I ask about this: "An act to provide living quarters, including heat, fuel, and light, for civilian officers and employees of the Government stationed in foreign countries," which was approved June 26, 1930, we authorized the provision of living quarters without cost to them, including heat, fuel, and light in the Government-owned or rented buildings for civilian employees, provided, "That the provisions of this act shall apply only to those civilian.officers and employees who are citizens of the United States." It is my information that provision for the civilian employees who are citizens of the United States and come under the State Department has not been made in this bill, although a provision for civilian employees who are citizens of the United States and working for the other departments, Treasury and Agricultural Departments, have been provided for in the bills which have been passed for those departments. Is that so? Mr. CARR. Yes; that is so, Senator. Senator BINGHAM. Now, why was it left out of this bill when it was put into the Agricultural and Treasury? Mr. CARR. That I do not know. As a matter of fact, it was only brought to my attention the other day that it was in the bill for theI think, in this bill-for the Department of Labor and in the Treasury Department bill, and in the Agricultural Department bill, provisions have been made for rent, heat, and light of living quarters, not only for officers but for clerks as well. Senator BINGHAM. That is what I had reference to, civilian officers and employees. Mr. CARR. And we did not provide for all of the officials and the Department of Commerce did not provide for all of its clerks, the reason being these: As I understand, the Department of Commerce did not provide for clerks in its foreign establishments because it based its rental allowance upon the act which you passed, which superseded the act which you passed last April, for the Department of Commerce, which provided for rent allowance only for officers. We did not include rent allowance for our clerks, because at the time we discussed this bill before the Committee on Foreign Affairs. we had the understanding that we were to provide only for officers, and we only discussed officers in connection with that bill. So, when we came to put in our Budget estimates, we provided only for officers, and were unaware that anybody else was to do anything to the contrary until just the other day it was brought to my attention that these other three bills had gone in on a different course. I will say this, that I think most emphatically that if one branch of the service is provided rent, heat, fuel, and light, in foreign countries, for its clerks, I think that the others ought to be treated exactly alike. I think one of the most unjust things we can do is to treat some officers and some employees of the Government in a foreign country on an entirely different basis from that on which we treat the others in regard to rent, heat, fuel, and light. The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I agree with that Mr. Carr, but I would like to ask you for your ideas as to why we should transport clerks for instance over to their place of work in a foreign country, and then furnish them quarters, living quarters and all that, while in our own country we do not even transport the clerks from their homes to the seat of the Government. Senator BINGHAM. Well, Mr. Chairman, that is not for Mr. Carr to answer. That is for Congress to answer. Mr. Carr is basing that upon a bill that has been approved by Congress. The CHAIRMAN. I understand that, but I want to know if Mr. Carr has any reason to justify that action of Congress. I appreciate that Congress has done it. I do not know why we passed such an act, I confess, myself. Mr. CARR. I do think that there is a lot to be said for the officer or the clerk who is sent abroad, who serves in a foreign country and who is subject to be moved from one place to another on very short notice and who, generally speaking, gets quite a modest compensation. The CHAIRMAN. Does that rather modest compensation compare with what clerks receive in this country? Mr. CARR. I think so. The CHAIRMAN. Or are the salaries different? Mr. CARR. Taking it all in all, I think that it does; yes, sir. I do not think that any of them get a very large compensation, considering the type of work they have to do. The CHAIRMAN. Why should they not get the same salaries as clerks in this country doing the same kind of work and make up the difference by furnishing quarters, and that sort of thing? Senator HARRIS. Where living conditions are the same. Mr. CARR. I think the theory was that the living conditions were different in various places, and the idea that we had, at least, in allowing rent, heat, light, and fuel, is that an officer may have a certain value, and may be equally valuable, whether he is in Buenos Aires or Birmingham, so far as his official duties are concerned. The CHAIRMAN. I am referring now to clerks. Mr. CARR. Yes, sir; and he may be given the same salary, but in Buenos Aires his rent, heat, light expenses, will be vastly greater than they would be in Birmingham, so that instead of changing the salaries if he is given these allowances for heat, fuel, light, and so forth, those allowances can be adjusted to the cost of living in each place. Senator BINGHAM. Is it not true, Mr. Carr, that the great majority of the clerks employed by the State Department in foreign legations and consulates are not citizens of the United States, and are paid at a very low rate, much lower than we pay clerks in Washington? 36046-31-2 ing fund, for a temporary building at Nanking, because there is absolutely no place for us to house some additional personnel that is needed to go down there. Senator BINGHAM. There is not even a decent hotel in Nanking or any place to live. Mr. CARR. No, except the consulate building, and that is filled. Senator BINGHAM. That is not a large building? Mr. CARR. No; very small. The CHAIRMAN. Proceed, Mr. Carr. CIVILIAN EMPLOYEES RENT, LIGHT, HEAT Senator BINGHAM. Just on that item, may I ask about this: "An act to provide living quarters, including heat, fuel, and light, for civilian officers and employees of the Government stationed in foreign countries," which was approved June 26, 1930, we authorized the provision of living quarters without cost to them, including heat, fuel, and light in the Government-owned or rented buildings for civilian employees, provided, "That the provisions of this act shall apply only to those civilian.officers and employees who are citizens of the United States." It is my information that provision for the civilian employees who are citizens of the United States and come under the State Department has not been made in this bill, although a provision for civilian employees who are citizens of the United States and working for the other departments, Treasury and Agricultural Departments, have been provided for in the bills which have been passed for those departments. Is that so? Mr. CARR. Yes; that is so, Senator. Senator BINGHAM. Now, why was it left out of this bill when it was put into the Agricultural and Treasury? Mr. CARR. That I do not know. As a matter of fact, it was only brought to my attention the other day that it was in the bill for theI think, in this bill-for the Department of Labor and in the Treasury Department bill, and in the Agricultural Department bill, provisions have been made for rent, heat, and light of living quarters, not only for officers but for clerks as well. Senator BINGHAM. That is what I had reference to, civilian officers and employees. Mr. CARR. And we did not provide for all of the officials and the Department of Commerce did not provide for all of its clerks, the reason being these: As I understand, the Department of Commerce did not provide for clerks in its foreign establishments because it based its rental allow ance upon the act which you passed, which superseded the act which you passed last April, for the Department of Commerce, which provided for rent allowance only for officers. We did not include rent allowance for our clerks, because at the time we discussed this bill before the Committee on Foreign Affairs, we had the understanding that we were to provide only for officers, and we only discussed officers in connection with that bill. So, when we came to put in our Budget estimates, we provided only for officers, and were unaware that anybody else was to do anything to the contrary until just the other day it was brought to my atten ion that these other three bills had gone in on a different course. I will say this, that I think most emphatically that if one branch of the service is provided rent, heat, fuel, and light, in foreign countries, for its clerks, I think that the others ought to be treated exactly alike. I think one of the most unjust things we can do is to treat some officers and some employees of the Government in a foreign country on an entirely different basis from that on which we treat the others in regard to rent, heat, fuel, and light. The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I agree with that Mr. Carr, but I would like to ask you for your ideas as to why we should transport clerks for instance over to their place of work in a foreign country, and then. furnish them quarters, living quarters and all that, while in our own country we do not even transport the clerks from their homes to the seat of the Government. Senator BINGHAM. Well, Mr. Chairman, that is not for Mr. Carr to answer. That is for Congress to answer. Mr. Carr is basing that upon a bill that has been approved by Congress. The CHAIRMAN. I understand that, but I want to know if Mr. Carr has any reason to justify that action of Congress. I appreciate that Congress has done it. I do not know why we passed such an act, I confess, myself. Mr. CARR. I do think that there is a lot to be said for the officer or the clerk who is sent abroad, who serves in a foreign country and who is subject to be moved from one place to another on very short notice and who, generally speaking, gets quite a modest compensation. The CHAIRMAN. Does that rather modest compensation compare with what clerks receive in this country? Mr. CARR. I think so. The CHAIRMAN. Or are the salaries different? Mr. CARR. Taking it all in all, I think that it does; yes, sir. I do not think that any of them get a very large compensation, considering the type of work they have to do. The CHAIRMAN. Why should they not get the same salaries as clerks in this country doing the same kind of work and make up the difference by furnishing quarters, and that sort of thing? Senator HARRIS. Where living conditions are the same. Mr. CARR. I think the theory was that the living conditions were different in various places, and the idea that we had, at least, in allowing rent, heat, light, and fuel, is that an officer may have a certain value, and may be equally valuable, whether he is in Buenos Aires or Birmingham, so far as his official duties are concerned. The CHAIRMAN. I am referring now to clerks. Mr. CARR. Yes, sir; and he may be given the same salary, but in Buenos Aires his rent, heat, light expenses, will be vastly greater than they would be in Birmingham, so that instead of changing the salaries if he is given these allowances for heat, fuel, light, and so forth, those allowances can be adjusted to the cost of living in each place. Senator BINGHAM. Is it not true, Mr. Carr, that the great majority of the clerks employed by the State Department in foreign legations and consulates are not citizens of the United States, and are paid at a very low rate, much lower than we pay clerks in Washington? 36046-31- -2 |