Senator ANDERSON. Whereas in another program the giving of gifts, as Senator Saltonstall seems to recognize, might be used to divert programs from one project to another.

BETTER INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION THROUGH A CIVILIAN AGENCY

Mr. WEISL. Dr. Waterman, you testified in answer to Senator Anderson's questions that it would be easier to get international cooperation through a civilian agency than it would be through a military agency. Do you think it would make any difference in getting cooperation from Russia and her satellites whether it was done through the Secretary of Defense or through Dr. Dryden, the head of this proposed new agency?

Dr. WATERMAN. Yes; I do feel this is quite an important distinction. My evidence will be the cooperation which has existed in the IGY itself where, to be sure, we and the Russians have not collaborated in the construction and launching of our satellites; nevertheless, we do exchange information. The idea is to tell the scientists of all countries what the satellites have observed, and what they are doing. So, especially if one confines exchange of information to a scientific program in exploration of outer space and doesn't discuss the rocket systems to get them up there, this is a very natural way for scientists to cooperate and would be much easier than if it were under the Department of Defense.

Mr. WEISL. Wasn't the United States participation in the IGY through the Vanguard directed by the United States Navy?

Dr. WATERMAN. In the Vanguard operation, the Navy had the responsibility for getting the satellite in orbit, It was the responsibility of the United States National Committee, under the Academy of Sciences-purely a civilian committee-to determine the scientific program that the satellite would accomplish, subject, of course, to the limitations that Defense had to put on it. The Department of Defense was assigned responsibility of developing and procuring the vehicle to get the satellite there and to make sure that it was in orbit. The National Science Foundation had responsibility for the coordination of the scientific program among Government agencies and in securing and administering the funds which carried the program out. So, the only responsibility, you see, which Defense had was that really on the development and perfection of the rocket systems and the actual hardware required. The scientific program itself was in the hands of the scientists, as part of the IGY.

IGY AGREEMENTS

Mr. WEISL. Did the Russians live up to the provisions of the IGY agreement? Did they submit the information that they received? Dr. WATERMAN. They submitted promptly the information of the characteristics of their satellites and the radio frequency on which they would broadcast. They gave the dimensions of the orbit as soon as they knew what the orbit was, and then told us what scientific observations the satellites could make, although they were a little slow about that on the first one. As for the rest of it, so far as I know, they have not given us complete information of the results of the

scientific observations made in their satellite yet, but they are living up to the terms of their agreement.

This is a rather involved process, as we are finding out. It takes a matter of months to get the signals interpreted and analyzed in a form so that these are intelligible for use, and they have, to the best of my knowledge, not given us this full information yet. But this is within the terms of the agreement.

AUTHORITY FOR INTERNATIONAL COOPERATION

Mr. WEISL. Under this proposed legislation, is there any provision that you have seen that clearly gives this proposed organization the right to engage in any international cooperation?

Dr. WATERMAN. I believe I saw in the bill a statement in section 2, on page 2, line 22, "cooperation by the United States with other nations and groups of nations in work done pursuant to this act, which is defined as a contribution to policy objective.

Mr. WEISL. You will notice in the Atomic Energy Act it specifically provides the method of cooperation and the circumstances under which cooperation can or cannot be engaged in. This act merely states an objective or a purpose but it doesn't implement that objective or

purpose.

Dr. WATERMAN. As I see it, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, there are two ways in which this international cooperation might take place. One could be one very like the IGY program itself which would be an international cooperative undertaking to pool the findings of science in this outer space as proved by satellite observations. That would be one form, and this could come via the scientific unions and through the National Academy of Sciences and the National Science Foundation, as a matter of pure science.

And then, of course, the observations made by the agency would, if the United States agreed to this, be coordinated in that manner. The other means of setting up a joint program would be where one is involved in the specifications, the requirements that have to be met to get a satellite into orbit and how it would travel there and what it sees by way of exploration, where it could go next, how far it could travel.

Now that, you see, is a more practical job where international cooperation might take place, and, if it took place in that area, I would say this new agency would be just the one to participate. However, I would add that no matter how this international cooperation should be set up, that this should be, it seems to me, referred to the State Department before it is carried out.

ROLE OF THE STATE DEPARTMENT

Mr. WEISL. That was my next question. I was going to ask you what role the State Department played, for instance, in the international cooperative arrangement of the ÍGY.

Dr. WATERMAN. Our State Department was, of course, consulted and that is in our act, and I believe some such provisions should be here, in this bill-but, of course, that is subject to the views of your committee.

Mr. WEISL. You could have international cooperation through the State Department using the National Science Foundation and other civilian agencies without creating this new agency, couldn't you?

Dr. WATERMAN. Yes. In their respective areas that is certainly possible.

CONFLICT OF JURISDICTION

Mr. WEISL. Now, suppose there was an overlapping of work between the National Science Foundation, ARPA in the Defense Department, and the new space agency. Who would make the final decision as to which agency does what?

Dr. WATERMAN. Before I answer that directly, let me just clarify this as I look at it. There are certain military requirements for outer space which are obviously under and should be under the jursidiction of the Department of Defense. Presumably they would come out with a declaration of what they thought was appropriate for the Department of Defense.

Presumably that would involve the new agency, ARPA, primarily, which gets its policy from the Secretary of Defense.

Second, the new space agency should outline its plans as to its proper functions, recognizing that certain functions would be in the Department of Defense.

The National Science Foundation similarly would state the requirements of pure science for observations that could be made from the satellite in just the sense that one makes observations from the top of a mountain or the South Pole, or somewhere, as forming a part of general science where these observations would fill a much needed gap in the whole picture.

The final decision in such a case, if the agencies could not come to any agreement, it seems to me, would have to come from the President with the advice of his scientific counsel where needed. But it seems to me that at present, with the understanding that the Department of Defense and the NACA prepare a statement to give guidelines along which to work, this could readily be handled by cooperation of these three agencies.

DEFINITION OF "SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY"

Mr. WEISL. There is a provision, Dr. Waterman, in the bill which speaks of the "scientific community." It states that the new agency is to arrange for participation by the scientific community in planning scientific instruments, and so forth.

What do you construe this scientific community to mean? Does it extend beyond the scientific community of the United States?

Dr. WATERMAN. The phrase is usually used as a general one to denote all active research scientists, and as used generally it can perfectly well mean those of all countries. It is usually applied that way, but in this case it would naturally start with the scientific community of the United States, and then go further in basic research if this seemed appropriate and advisable. It usually is, in important fields of science, because the world authorities may be in a large number of countries. Contact with scientific communities could be made, of course, by advisory panels or committees which the agency director

30543 O-58-pt. 1-10

might set up. They could turn to us in the National Science Foundation because we have very wide contact with our own country, particularly our own scientists; and we in turn could also, as we now do, turn to the National Academy of Science-Research Council which has a number of panels of outstanding scientists in the country. So that there is plenty of opportunity here in Washington for that kind of contact to be established. In fact these last two recommendations were contained in the President's message of April 2, which stated:

I am also asking the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics to begin immediate preparation of such detailed plans as may be required to prepare for the assumption by the National Aeronautics and Space Agency of the responsibilities contemplated for it. Those plans are to set forth the specific new space programs to be initiated and are to describe the internal organization, management structure, staff, facilities, and funds which will be required. The National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics is to discuss with the National Science Foundation and the National Academy of Sciences the matter of participation by the scientific community in determining the scientific objectives of our space programs. The best scientific judgment available should be utilized. Matters related to dissemination of the data collected should also be considered.

Mr. WEISL. I know that. I am speaking of this particular bill and whether or not it needs more definition to make clear what that paragraph means. Does that paragraph give unlimited authority without restriction for this agency to communicate with the scientists all over the world and tell them anything it needs to tell them?

Dr. WATERMAN. Its Director would have to do this in a reasonable way.

Mr. WEISL. I am talking about the statute, whether under this language

Dr. WATERMAN. I mean under this language. It seems to me the Director would be expected to do this in an intelligent manner by calling in the scientists that he needs, whose advice he needs, by any mechanism that may be available, and if he should find there is an expert on some particular unclassified phase of space exploration in another country, then he would, of course, try to see if his scientists could be in touch with that man.

Mr. WEISL. I know what he could do or might do, but I am talking about what he should be required to do or what he should be defined as having the power to do under a well-considered piece of legislation.

Senator ANDERSON. Thank you very much, Dr. Waterman. I thank you not only on behalf of myself but on behalf of the chairman of the committee, and I am sure all the members appreciate your coming here. We hope that you will continue to make recommendations and suggestions to us from time to time.

The committee will recess until 2 o'clock this afternoon when it will hear from Mr. Roy W. Johnson, Director of ARPA, and Dr. Herbert York, chief scientist of ARPA.

The committee is adjourned.

(Whereupon at 12:20 p. m. the committee adjourned, to reconvene at 2 p. m., the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

Senator JOHNSON. The committee will come to order.

For the information of our guests, I have the following admonition placed at my microphone:

Senator Johnson, your mike is always on. It cannot be cut off. Watch your private conversations.

[Laughter.]

Our first witness this afternoon is Mr. Roy William Johnson, Director of the Advanced Research Projects Agency.

Mr. Johnson, I think you have a very fine name.

Mr. JOHNSON. I agree, sir.

Senator JOHNSON. We welcome you to Government service.

We are aware of your distinguished career in private enterprise and now that you are in the practical public business of exploring space, the committee is eager to hear your testimony.

With the consent of the committee, I'll insert at this point in the record a biographical sketch of Mr. Johnson.

Without objection, that will be done.

(The biographical sketch referred to is as follows:)

BIOGRAPHY OF ROY WILLIAM JOHNSON, DIRECTOR, ADVANCED RESEARCH

PROJECTS AGENCY

He

Mr. Johnson was born in Michigan City, Ind., on September 5, 1905. attended the University of Michigan where he received his bachelor of arts degree in 1927.

Mr. Johnson was employed by the General Electric Co. from 1930 to 1939, and Schick, Inc., from 1939 to 1942.

He was president of Post & Johnson from 1942 to 1948.

He served as a member of the War Production Board 1942-44.

He was vice president and executive vice president of the General Electric Co. 1948-58.

He assumed the position as Director of the Advanced Research Projects Agency on April 1, 1958.

Mr. Johnson is president of the American Council To Improve Our Neighborhood (ACTION, Inc.), a program for urban renewal, and is the 1958 New York City chairman of the American Red Cross fund and membership drive.

Senator JOHNSON. I understand that you have a prepared statement, Mr. Johnson.

As you choose, you may proceed in your own manner, and, at the conclusion of your statement, each Senator will have 10 minutes to ask you questions, and any counsel that desires to ask questions may do so.

STATEMENT OF ROY W. JOHNSON, DIRECTOR, ADVANCED RESEARCH PROJECTS AGENCY

Mr. JOHNSON. Thank you.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, it is a pleasure for me to appear before your committee to discuss the proposed bill, S. 3609.

I understand that Dr. York, who is the chief scientist of the Advanced Research Projects Agency, will follow me this afternoon. First, I should like to preface this discussion with certain comments on the activities of ARPA and its organizational relationship with other agencies.

Since ARPA was organized on February 7, 1958, we have spent considerable time working with other DOD staffs on our assigned projects.

Our frame of reference has been the directive from the Secretary of Defense which gives to ARPA the responsibility for planning and directing advanced research projects involving space science and