Senator JOHNSON. You also stated that in your opinion S. 3609 meets that objective?

Mr. STRAUSS. In my opinion, it does, Senator.

Senator JOHNSON. Where, Admiral, in your opinion does this bill vest the central authority? Does it vest it in the Board, or in the Director, or in the Department, or in the President?

Mr. STRAUSS. It seems to me that the authority is vested in the President, Senator, in the sense that he appoints the Director upon the recommendations of the Board, and the Director is responsible to him.

Senator JOHNSON. Now, I observe under "Functions of the Board" that the Board will meet four times and shall advise the Director, and the Board may make recommendations to the President. Over here under "transfer of functions," for a period of 3 years after effective date, the agency shall confer with the head of the department or agency concerned, and, with the approval of the President, may transfer to itself any functions.

It seems to me that this is a pretty involved procedure. We are not going to expect the President to be responsible for each detail of this administration, but, it seems to me, that you vest power in the Director and you say he needs to consult with the Board all right, although he is not bound by them, and he cannot transfer anything without the concurrence of the head of the department or agency concerned, and without the approval of the President.

So it looks like we have authority scattered around in as many places as you have agencies.

Mr. STRAUSS. Senator, my interpretation

Senator JOHNSON. Is that a wrong assumption?

Mr. STRAUSS. Let me say that my interpretation of that, which may or may not be correct, is, in order that the selection by this Agency of the parts of the activities of other agencies which may be transferred shall be deliberate and not capricious, that they may only be drawn into the ambit of the new Agency as the result of deliberation and the President's initial concurrence.

This is a purely individual, personal, construction. I have not discussed this with Counsel. I don't know what my distinguished Counsel might feel about it.

May I consult him on that point?

Senator JOHNSON. Of course, Admiral.

I want you to get all the advice you have, because the committee will want very much to have your considered recommendations.

The thing that concerns me is, I think you very properly testified as to the wisdom of giving control, direction, and authority to one agency, but I don't find such provisions in the bill that you support. It may be there but it looks to me like you have authority scattered around in as many agencies as you have agencies in this field, and I just wonder on the basis of your broad experience in Government, whether you feel that the Atomic Energy Commission could successfully function under a charter of this kind, where before you could make a step you had to have some agency agree to do it, and/or had to have the approval of the President.

Mr. STRAUSS. This is quite

Senator JOHNSON. And consult with the Board 3 or 4 times a year, advisory in nature.

Mr. STRAUSS. This is quite different from the Atomic Energy Commission, Senator.

Senator JOHNSON. I realize that, but you have the same problem in administration, and that is what I am pointing out to you. You were asked: Do you have control, direction, and authority vested in one place, and if so, where is it. And your answer is, the President. Mr. STRAUSS. I believe, as I have read the bill, that this authority is vested in the Director, an individual, and is the same type of authority that in the Atomic Energy Commission is vested in five individuals. If you will recall in 1946 when the Atomic Energy Commission became law, I think on the 31st of July in that year, it provided that on a set date, which I think was December 31, 1946, or January 1, 1947, the properties and the functions of the Manhattan Engineer District of the Corps of Engineers were turned over to the Commission as a unit.

This was a good deal simpler administratively than what faces this. agency which will be under the necessity—I should think from reading this of acquiring some properties and some personnel from more than one existing agency.

The Board has some analogies, but only some, to the General Advisory Committee of the Atomic Energy Commission. It is to be composed of people with recognized backgrounds in the various scientific and engineering fields; it is not in constant session but meets periodically-at quarterly intervals; it has one function that the General Advisory Committee to the Commission does not have and that is, as I read this bill, the Board recommends to the President the person of the Director. In that sense, it is a more responsible body to the President than is the General Advisory Committee to the Commission. The General Advisory Committee to the Commission limits advice to the Commission, and does not, I believe, by statute, advise the President of the United States.

Senator JOHNSON. In your opinion?

Mr. STRAUSS. I am not quite certain as to the accuracy of the last statement, but it is my belief. If I find that I am incorrect, I will offer a correction for the record.

Senator JOHNSON. Admiral, in your opinion is it wise to require the Director to consult with the Board on purely administrative matters? Mr. STRAUSS. Senator, here I will testify as an individual and not for the Commission because I have never discussed this question with my colleagues.

Senator JOHNSON. You use whatever hat you choose.

Mr. STRAUSS. Thank you, sir, it is the same hat. It is a civilian straw hat.

Senator, I think that a board that meets only at quarterly intervals · does not meet sufficiently frequently to be helpful on administrative matters. Administrative problems are of more frequent occurrence and the Director would have to have considerable leeway in order to run an efficient show on his administrative problems.

Senator JOHNSON. I observe here on page 5, the Board shall be consulted by the Director prior to establishment of a major contingent organization and units of the Agency, and assignments of major units and functions thereto.

30543 O-58-pt. 1-4

Mr. STRAUSS. Senator, I have a print.

Senator JOHNSON. Page 5, line 3, section 5 (c), the Board shall be consulted by the Director prior to-and then I skip to line 11, section 5 (c) (3)-the Board shall be consulted by the Director prior to the establishment of major constituent units of the Agency

Mr. STRAUSS. I think that is more than a routine administrative decision. That is rather fundamental to the conduct of the affairs of the Agency, and I think it would be the sort of thing that a prudent Director would get the best advice he could on, before taking action and he would therefore consult his Board.

ACCESS TO RESTRICTED DATA

Senator JOHNSON. Thank you, Admiral. What is your opinion of section 7 of the present bill since you have it there, which provides that the AEC may authorize personnel of the new space Agency to have access to restricted data?

Mr. STRAUSS. May I consult counsel on this for a moment, Senator? Senator, the reason for my delay was that I wanted to make sure that the Commission had observed the amenities of discussing with the Bureau of the Budget the answer that I am about to make to your question. In the statement which I read at the opening, I had a paragraph which I did not read and which I should now like to read, which is responsive to your question, I believe, sir.

Senator JOHNSON. Proceed.

Mr. STRAUSS. It seems appropriate to call attention to section 7 of the proposed act which is in effect

Senator JOHNSON. Admiral, I am having a little difficulty hearing you.

Mr. STRAUSS. I am sorry, sir.

It seems appropriate to call attention to section 7 (a) of the proposed act which is in effect, although not in form, an amendment to the Atomic Energy Act which would place the Space Agency in a status, insofar as access to restricted data is concerned, comparable to that occupied by the Department of Defense under section 143 of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954, as amended. We assume that a primary objective of the proposal is to establish a new mechanism for the exchange of "restricted data" between those agencies having a mutual interest in space problems. If this assumption is correct, then it should be recognized that although section 7 (a) would authorize the Atomic Energy Commission to permit "restricted data" access to an employee of the Space Agency on the basis of that Agency's clearance, it does not alter the existing requirement of the Atomic Energy Act that the same employee could exchange "restricted data" with an employee of the Department of Defense only on the basis of an AEC clearance. This is because section 7 (a) relates only to transmissions of "restricted data" to the proposed space agency.

Now we think that this can be cured. We think that language can be provided that will accomplish what we believe the bill intends, and we would like—if it is the desire of the committee that we should do so-to work with the interested agencies in suggesting an amendment to the language to accomplish the purpose that we believe is intended.

Senator JOHNSON. Thank you, Admiral. If you will submit to the committee suggested clarifying language or amendments to the pro

posed bill, we will be glad to consider them before we start marking up the measure.

Under the rules of the committee each member is restricted in his first round of questioning to 10 minutes, and the chairman is no exception. My time has expired.

I have some other questions I would like to pursue, later if I am here.

Now, Senator Hickenlooper.

NECESSITY FOR SINGLE COORDINATING AGENCY

Senator HICKENLOOPER. Mr. Chairman, as you know, the Joint Committee on Atomic Energy sometime ago established a special subcommittee on matters of space investigations which might involve atomic energy.

At that time, and since there has been some discussion as to what agency or agencies should have primary jurisdiction or supervision over this particular subject matter, it has been brought out repeatedly, of course, that nuclear propulsion is one of the fields which must be explored and which seems at the moment at least to be an essential field of propulsion for extended exploration into space. However, I have the feeling, and I wonder if you will agree with me, that this whole activity probably is far broader than the field of atomic energy alone. And any agency that is established should have a breed of supervision which would accomplish atomic energy as well as accomplish other scientific and technical and engineering phases of this whole program.

Does that argument hold water, in your opinion?

Mr. STRAUSS. I think it does, Senator. I don't know whether you were present when I testified before. I think it was the House side of a committee which had been formed on the subject within the Joint Committee. If I am not mistaken this was before this bill had been drawn, certainly before it was presented. I have just asked to see whether I have a copy of the testimony here and we do not. At that time I listed those agencies that I thought were possible claimants for this responsibility-the Atomic Energy Commission among them by reason of the work that we were already doing in the field of nuclear propulsion-and I expressed the belief that they could get along together but that it was most important, far more important than the determination which was the best equipped, to see that the responsibility was placed into one agency.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. Thank you. Well, to get at it another way and I think I understand what you mean, but to get at it another way, atomic propulsion in ships is a very important field of course. The Atomic Energy Commission is very vitally interested and properly so, in the atomic components of the propulsion system in ships, but is not in the business of building ships.

Mr. STRAUss. That is true.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. By the same token, you are not in the business of building airplanes, but you are interested in the atomic components that might go into any atomic power for an airplane. Mr. STRAUSs. That is true.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. And the same thing would go with power reactors. You are interested in the reactors for the projection of

power, but you are not in the business of building generator stations, that is turbines and things of that sort, and distribution systems.

I have a concept of this matter somewhat along that line and I have used that argument in answer to those people who have suggested in the past that this whole kit and caboodle should be turned over to the Atomic Energy Commission.

I think that idea has been somewhat dispelled as time has gone on, but I feel that there are various agencies which may have a highly specialized interest in one phase of space operation and that probably an overall agency is the best way to handle it rather than attempt to turn it over to a specialized agency which would attempt to get into other fields than its specialty.

Mr. STRAUSS. I would suspect, Senator, that this agency will farm out parts of its problem. A part of that problem has to do with initial thrust and would perhaps be done by those who are engaged in the development of solid and liquid fuels just as our agency is engaged in the development of nuclear propulsion.

Similarly, the vehicle itself, the frame, whether it will be in the course of the years something that resembles a plane or whether it will be something of a totally different configuration, no one can say, but it seems to me that this new agency will place the responsibility for the development of those components in such parts of the Government's establishment as appear to be best qualified to turn them out.

Senator HICKENLOOPER. In other words, I take it from your statement awhile ago when you said there was a vast reservoir of information, technical and skilled information and experience in the agency, that you meant that the Atomic Energy Commission should by all means have direct responsibility for the development of those strictly nuclear matters because of the experience and the background information of the agency.

Mr. STRAUSS. I can best illustrate the validity of that

Senator HICKENLOOPER. That is rather than have that field taken over by some new agency that had not been in the business. Mr. STRAUSS. Correct, Senator.

Now take the ROVER project.

The ROVER project is the rocket propulsion project that is being carried on at the Los Alamos Laboratory of the Commission.

The men live there, the laboratories are there, the developmental machine shops and plants are there. To duplicate them would be expensive. To pull those people out would be extremely disruptive. Many of them are engaged not only in that, but in other work as well. The very fact that men are not limited to one project in thinking about it, and in discussing it, is one of the very fortunate things about the laboratories of the Commission. It has kept them on their toes and many of the good ideas which are developed frequently arise in the minds of men not directly concerned with the particular project at hand.

CONSIDERATION OF A MILITARY LIAISON COMMITTEE

Senator HICKENLOOPER. Just one more question. I would like to get your opinion on this. Recalling as you do, of course, the discussions in the formulation of the original legislation on atomic energy about the protection of the national security-that is, the military participation-it involved discussions of civilian control and military