Senator BRANDEGEE. But it confines you to one place.

Mr. DAVIS. I was not in Paris all the time.

Senator BRANDEGEE. I will take your own word for it, do you consider yourself competent now to inform this committee that all the peoples of Europe are in favor of the league of nations now?

Mr. DAVIS. I can certainly say that I took a great deal of interest in studying the state of mind of the people in Europe, and I was on the supreme economic council which had to deal with all those transitory questions during the armistice.

Senator BRANDEGEE. How many people are there in Europe? Senator FALL. I would like to let him answer the question. Senator HITCHCOCK. I think, Mr. Chairman, the witness ought to be given a chance, and not be cross-examined as a criminal.

Senator BRANDEGEE. I am not interested in what the Senator from Nebraska thinks.

The CHAIRMAN. Come to order. The Senator has the right to cross-examine the witness.

Senator WILLIAMS. And the witness has a right to answer.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I thought he had.

Senator BRANDEGEE. I want to know what opportunity the witness had to ascertain the opinion of the majority of the nations of Europe.

Senator FALL. And he was answering that question when cut off. Mr. DAVIS. I was trying to answer and trying to tell you what I found. As I stated, I was on the supreme economic council which had charge of all transitory measures during the armistice period; that is, all the questions relating to food, finances, blockade, raw materials, and shipping. Under this there was the relief organization of which Mr. Hoover was the head, and he also sat on the supreme economic council. He had his representatives throughout Europe in charge of the distribution of relief. They had excellent opportunities to come in contact with the people and to gauge their views, and the unanimous report from all of those several hundred men going through the whole of Europe was to that effect. I also read the continental papers to the extent that I could, and I talked with the representatives of various governments. I talked to some of them that came from all parts of Europe to Paris, and, as I say, not only, in my judgment, are the people expecting a great deal from the league of nations but they are probably expecting that it will relieve everything. They may be expecting more than the league of nations will be able to accomplish. That I do not attempt to pass upon. But I have no doubt that the great majority, from all the information I could gather, I am decidedly of the opinion that the great majority of the people, the masses of Europe, are in favor of it.

The CHAIRMAN. You include, of course, Germany and Russia? Mr. DAVIS. I do. Well, Russia it was rather difficult, Mr. Chairman, to get accurate information from.

The CHAIRMAN. I wanted to know whether you included the Russians or whether Russia has a general idea of relief?

Mr. DAVIS. That I could not say.

Senator WILLIAMS. The Russians have not any ideas on any Subject now.

The CHAIRMAN. They have 180,000,000 people.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Do you think the great majority of the people in Italy now favor the league?

Mr. DAVIS. What has happened in Italy lately I do not know, but I have no doubt they were all decidedly in favor of it. I see nothing to lead me to believe that they have changed at all.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Now, supposing that the United States should not ratify this treaty at all, the work of the reparation commission would go on, would it not, the other nations having ratified it? If Great Britain and France and Italy and Germany ratify the treaty, the reparation commission will be set up, will it not? Mr. DAVIS. I assume that it would.

Senator BRANDEGEE. And the work would go on?

Mr. DAVIS. It would probably go on, but very unsatisfactorily. I think, so far as the United States is concerned. We would have nobody there to protect our interests.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Certainly not, but you say we are making no claim for any reparation.

Mr. DAVIS. No; I did not say that.

Senator BRANDEGEE. What did you say?

Mr. DAVIS. My own personal idea is that we should make a claim. Senator BRANDEGEE. Then what is our interest in it, if we do not make a claim?

Mr. DAVIS. Our interest is in the general financial condition of the world and having markets for our products.

Senator BRANDEGEE. In Annex II, paragraph 2, on page 263, it provides as follows:

Each government represented on the commission shall have the right to withdraw therefrom upon 12 months' notice filed with the commission and confirmed in the course of the sixth month after the date of the original notice.

That contemplates that any government can get out that wants to, does it not?

Mr. DAVIS. That was put in specifically for the United States, in case we got through with the work and it was felt there was no longer any reason for our staying on that commission, so that we would have the right to withdraw if we wanted to.

Senator BRANDEGEE. That means that the work of the commission would go on after the United States got through?

Mr. DAVIS. Not necessarily so. I mean, you might necessarily have a right to do something that would give you a great deal of trouble if you were to do it.

Senator BRANDEGEE. The man who put this in, who fixed it that way, evidently did not contemplate the abolition of the reparation commission if we withdrew.

Mr. DAVIS. I was one of the men who put this in, and the reason I put it in was because I thought there might be men in the United States who would object to the United States staying on a commission for an indefinite period in Europe, and after we got through with this preliminary work and the principal work had been done, the United States could, if the Government thought it advisable to do so, withdraw from this commission.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Having contemplated this, now if we exercise that right and withdraw from the commission, it is perfectly evident, is it not, that those powers upon the reparation commission which is to give them reparation and divide up the amount of money

which is to be paid by Germany, can perform their functions whether we are there or not?

Mr. DAVIS. I think they can perform their functions.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Yes.

Mr. DAVIS. But I do not think it would work as satisfactorily. Senator BRANDEGEE. It might not work as satisfactorily to us or to them, but this clearly contemplates that we can get out if we

want to.

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Senator BRANDEGEE. And then the thing goes on. It is not smashed up. They apportion the amount of reparation among themselves.

Mr. Davis. I would not say that. It contemplates that we can get out if we want to.

Senator BRANDEGEE. You say you were one of those that put this in. You did not do it with the idea that it would break up the reparation commission if we did get out?

Senator WILLIAMS. And you did not contemplate getting out until you had done your work?

Mr. DAVIS. No, sir.

Senator BRANDEGEE. This is my witness, Mr. Williams, if you please. You can have him after I get through.

Now, supposing it should seem wise to the Senate, before ratifying the treaty of peace with Germany, to strike out the covenant of the league of nations. We would be at peace with Germany. Europe would go on with the reparation commission and with the provisions of the treaty. Do you think Europe would abandon itself to chaos or anarchy if we should adopt that course?

Mr. DAVIS. I think it would have a terrible effect on Europe. I do. Senator BRANDEGEE. After a few days, after their hurt had had a chance to heal up, they would get along some way, would they not? Mr. DAVIS. They probably would get along. They got along with the French Revolution.

Senator BRANDEGEE. Exactly.

Mr. DAVIS. Until it was finally over; and they would probably get along, but they would probably get along very badly, in my judg

ment.

Senator BRANDEGEE. They always have gotten along They never have had, in the settlement of European wars heretofore, any covenant of a league of nations, have they?

Mr. DAVIS. No.

Senator BRANDEGEE. And Europe has been fighting since the dawn of time, has it not?

Mr. DAVIS. Apparently so.

Senator BRANDEGEE. They have apparently recovered from all their wars without dragging us into them?

Mr. DAVIS. They have not always recovered very well from all their wars.

Senator BRANDEGEE. They are still on the map?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Senator BRANDEGEE. That is all.

Senator HITCHCOCK. They did not get along without us in 1917? Mr. DAVIS. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You said that it was to be done by the league of nations.

Mr. DAVIS. I understand that those boundaries were fixed in accordance with the principles which had been enunciated

The CHAIRMAN. That is not the question. You said that they were to be fixed by the league of nations.

Mr. DAVIS. NO; I beg your pardon.

The CHAIRMAN. The treaty says that is to be done by the five allied and associated powers.

Mr. DAVIS. I either misstated this, or you misunderstood me. The CHAIRMAN. I understood you to say that without the league of nations they would be fixed under the old plan of strategic boundaries, but that under the league of nations the boundaries could be fixed on racial and other considerations. If you will read the treaty with a little more care, I think you will find that they are fixed by the principal allied and associated powers.

Mr. DAVIS. I think you will find that that is what I did say, Mr Chairman, if you will read back.

Senator MOSES. He certainly said they were going to be fixed on the basis of ethnographic and some racial lines.

The CHAIRMAN. The treaty does not say anything about that. It is always the principal allied and associated powers.

Senator HITCHCOCK. He did not state anything contrary to that. The CHAIRMAN. I think he did. He never mentioned at all the five principal allied and associated powers.

Senator HITCHCOCK. He said that the league of nations contemplated

The CHAIRMAN. If we summon here a gentleman as an expert on the treaty, and if he makes an error of that sort, I think it is just as well that it should be corrected.

Senator HITCHCOCK. I am perfectly willing that it should be corrected. We have the stenographic notes, which will show what he did say.

The CHAIRMAN. If everybody at this table imagines that he said that we were not to have strategic boundaries, but that boundaries were to be fixed under the league of nations, according to some principle, it is very strange if everybody is mistaken. I heard it and everybody else heard it.

Senator WILLIAMS. He said that--

The CHAIRMAN. He said that was one of the things that the league of nations was to deal with, the settlement of boundaries.

Senator WILLIAMS. He said that under the league of nations they could be fixed in certain ways.

The CHAIRMAN. But the league of nations has nothing to do with the fixing of boundaries.

Senator MOSES. Can we get back to the question?

The CHAIRMAN. I want to see that right from the stenographer's notes.

Senator MOSES. Coming to the lines that have already been fixed or are in process of fixation, I want to ask if the northern boundary of Italy has not been fixed upon strategic lines; I want to ask if the boundary line which is run near or through the lake of Ochrida has been fixed on racial lines; I want to ask if the boundaries of Silesia. Bessarabia, the Dobruja, the Banat, of Northern Epirus, of Albania,

considerations, such matters as will redound to the interests of peace and not to the victory of one nation or another?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

Senator HARDING. What was that term you used?

Senator KNOX. Is that the way that you settled Shantung?

Mr. DAVIS. I did not have anything to do with Shantung.

Senator KNOX. Do you think that is the way the settlement was made with regard to Shantung?

Mr. DAVIS. I think the President can better explain Shantung than myself.

Senator KNOX. Yes, but I do not think that Shantung can be very satisfactorily explained through the league of nations.

Senator HARDING. I want to ask Mr. Davis a question that has a bearing only on the mind of Europe. Were there serious proposals at any time that the United States should share the burdens of the war from the beginning?

Mr. DAVIS. There was talk, Senator, about that, but no real serious proposals were ever made to that effect. Some one was always bobbing up with some Utopian scheme of that kind; but that was a matter that we simply never discussed, and that we refused to discuss.

Senator WILLIAMS. Mr. Davis, my friend Senator Brandegee, asked you if these people in Europe would get along some way or other even if we let them alone. Russia is getting along some way or other now, is she not?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes; exactly.

Senator WILLIAMS. And in reference to this crime of your having expressed an opinion of the league of nations, in addition to the suggestions you have given to the committee do you not think it is an additional justification that any man has a right to form an opinion upon any public or international question?

Mr. DAVIS. Well, that is a question.

Senator WILLIAMS. Especially in answer to a question?
Senator HITCHCOCK. How long were you over there?

Mr. DAVIS. I have been in Europe practically-well, I went over first last July. I went first to Spain to negotiate a credit in Spain for our Government, and then I went back to Paris and was there a while-had to arrange some matters with the French treasury-and then I spent about seven weeks in London arranging other matters with the British treasury, and then I went back to Spain for a week and a half, and went back the latter part of November.

The CHAIRMAN. You stated that the league was very useful for the purpose of fixing boundaries. I have not had time to run through them all here, although I have been through them all, but I observe that it is always the principal allied and associated powers that fix the boundaries.

Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. I mean, for instance, take Austria; the frontier was fixed in the treaty between that power and the principal allied and associated powers. It is the same with regard to Czechoslovakia. It is the same for Germny, except for the Saar Basin, as I remember. Mr. DAVIS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. The five principal allied and associated powers have the power in this treaty, have they not?

Mr. DAVIS. I understand, Mr. Chairman.

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