Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Meli set them up in this business?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. I think so. I think it was his money.

Mr. KENNEDY. He was a notorious character in Detroit-Mr. Meli? Mr. HAMMERGREN. Well, I don't know about that.

Mr. KENNEDY. At one time he was public enemy No. 1 in Detroit. Mr. HAMMERGREN. Yes. I say personally-I knew about it, but for me to substantiate that, I can't. I know he was a very successful Chrysler dealer. That is the way he was presented to us.

Mr. KENNEDY. When you had meetings of the distributors, did Mr. Meli come to those meetings, Angelo Meli?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Yes; he came to one of them, one of them that I know of.

Mr. KENNEDY. Could you identify these pictures? That would be meetings where just distributors would come; is that right?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Distributors, or if they couldn't come, their key personnel, people that were responsible and who could make decisions for the distributors.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you have a meeting of the distributors in September of 1946, or thereabouts?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. I believe so, yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did Mr. Meli attend that meeting? Do you remember that pictures were taken at that time?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Well, we took pictures of all our meetings.

If

I could see some documentary evidence-I think it was 1946. I don't know.

Was it 1946 up in Minnesota that you are talking about?
Mr. KENNEDY. Yes.

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Yes, at Cross Lake, at the distributors' club. The CHAIRMAN. The Chair hands you five pictures. I will let you examine them. State if you identify them and, as you identify them, if you do, they will be made exhibit No. 5A, B, C, D, and E.

You may examine the five pictures, and as you identify them they will be marked accordingly. [Photographs were handed to the witness.]

Mr. HAMMERGREN. That on your left

The CHAIRMAN. The first one you have will be made exhibit No. 5A.

(Photograph referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 5A" for reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.)

The CHAIRMAN. You are speaking of 5A now. Do you identify

that picture?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. On the left is Sammy Tocco.

The CHAIRMAN. You do identify it?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. On the left is whom?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Sam Tocco, Samuel Tocco.

The CHAIRMAN. That is on your left as you look at the picture?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Yes, sir, on my left as I am looking.

The CHAIRMAN. As you look at the picture, the one on your left?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Right. The other is Angelo Meli.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know when and where that picture was made?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. I know where it was made. It was made at Cross Lake, Minn.

The CHAIRMAN. Where?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Cross Lake, where I live. That is a distributors' club up there.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you remember about when it was made? Just the year will be near enough, if you can give the year.

Mr. HAMMERGREN. 1946 or 1947.

The CHAIRMAN. 1946 or 1947?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. I am not positive of the year. It is one or the other.

The CHAIRMAN. Proceed with the next one.

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Then you have the same two people pitching horseshoes at the same place. But they are just reversed. On my left is Mr. Meli and on my right is Mr. Tocco.

The CHAIRMAN. That will be made exhibit 5B.

(Photograph referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 5B" for reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.) The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. HAMMERGREN. I don't know what you want me to identify here. This is the distributors' club. There are three individuals there, but I can't see them well enough to make an identification. The CHAIRMAN. Are you unable to identify the three individuals in that picture?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. With any certainty I would hesitate to do so. The CHAIRMAN. But you do identify the building?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that where all of these pictures were made, there, or in that vicinity?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. So far, those I have looked at; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. That may be made exhibit 5C. (Photograph referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 5C" for reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.)

Mr. HAMMERGREN. The next one was made at the same location. The man to my left is Mr. Al Mendes, who was the regional manager, and the other gentleman is Bill Bufalino, of Detroit.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be made exhibit 5D.

(Photograph referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 5D" for reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.) Mr. HAMMERGREN. The second picture is the same people.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be made exhibit 5E.

(Photograph referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 5E" for reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.)

The CHAIRMAN. Now we have the five pictures identified.
They were all made about the same time?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Yes; they were all made at the same meeting.
The CHAIRMAN. The same meeting?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Proceed.

Mr. KENNEDY. The negotiations that were conducted for granting the Wurlitzer distributorship to Meli and this other group, those negotiations were conducted with Angelo Meli, himself?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. I would say all three of them, Angelo Meli, Bufalino, and

Mr. KENNEDY. Who was the dominant force?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Mr. Meli.

Mr. KENNEDY. These other two were younger boys who were just getting started in the business?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you get the impression that he was setting them up in this business?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. This is of some importance, Mr. Chairman.

What about Ohio? Could you tell us what the situation was in Ohio? In Detroit you were successful after you made this arrange

ment.

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Well, in Ohio that didn't follow. We were never successful in Ohio.

Mr. KENNEDY. But you had been with Mr. Meli in Detroit?
Mr. HAMMERGREN. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. What happened in Ohio? Would you tell us what the situation was in Ohio, and what the problem had been in Ohio?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Well, I don't know what it is at the present time, but when I was in the picture Ohio was a market which it seemed almost impossible to penetrate. We tried various ways and means to break into Ohio, but they had an operators' association over there which was very, very effective. That is, they had all the operators of any consequence, and they told you pretty much what to do.

We tried to get, as an example, 30 percent replacements, and they told us they would give us 10. We proceeded to try our own methods, and I again sent Mr. Goldberg over there. He rented a store and put a man in there and we left in a couple of days.

Mr. KENNEDY. Why did you leave in a couple of days?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Well, they blew out the windows in the store, and we couldn't get anybody to go over there and go to work.

Mr. KENNEDY. Don't you understand or do you understand from the industry that the situation in Ohio is still, at the present time, just about the same?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. The last I heard, Mr. Kennedy, it has not changed at all.

The CHAIRMAN. Does that mean that some group over there has a monopoly on this business?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. I would say so; yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And they maintain that monopoly by the strongarm methods you have referred to?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. They did when I was in the business. I say they still do, but am just guessing.

The CHAIRMAN. That is your information that they still do?
Mr. HAMMERGREN. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. You know they did?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. I know they did, but I am removed from that business now.

Mr. KENNEDY. Who did you send in there? Did you send a fellow who could take care of himself?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Well, Al Goldberg wouldn't send anybody in there that didn't have the reputation of being able to take care of himself, but it was a little bit too hot to handle.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you know the man who was sent in there?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. No.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you know his reputation or his background? Mr. HAMMERGREN. No. I would imagine he was a pretty-as they call it-heavy man, that he could take care of himself. I don't know who he was. I might, if I had some way of refreshing my memory. The name, I think, can probably come back to me. But I don't recall it now.

Mr. KENNEDY. Was his car blown up also as well as the windows of the store blown in?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Yes, as I recall.

Mr. KENNEDY. He didn't want to stay there?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. No. He got out of there in a hurry.

Mr. KENNEDY. Whereabouts in Ohio?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Cleveland.

Mr. KENNEDY. Where does this group operate through Ohio? Mr. HAMMERGREN. All through the State. They were strong in Cincinnati as well as Youngstown. I presume they operated all through the State, except, maybe, some of the much smaller towns. Mr. KENNEDY. Who are the dominant figures?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. At that time?

Mr. KENNEDY. Yes.

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Well, the largest operator was a fellow named Leo Dixon.

Mr. KENNEDY. He is still active in the operation?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. No. I don't believe he is in Ohio at all any more. The last I heard I think he broke it up and-I think he broke up his operation, sold it off, and became a distributor for a competitor. Mr. KENNEDY. Is he still operating in Ohio?

Mr. HAMMEGREN. No. I think they took him apart.

Mr. KENNEDY. Not literally.

Mr. HAMMERGREN. No, I don't believe so, but financially. They took his operation.

Mr. KENNEDY. Who was the other dominant figure?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Well, Bill Presser is in that picture.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you understand it was through the efforts of Presser that the industry remained in the condition that you have

found it!

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Well, I don't know if I ought to give him all that credit, but I think he had quite a bit to do with it. He was quite a factor when Mr. Dixon and the association operated and the Ohio Music Merchants Association was in full bloom.

Mr. KENNEDY. What about in Florida? Did you ever go down there?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Did I ever go to Florida?

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you ever have any problems in Florida?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. No, not too much. I had Sam Taran down there after a while.

Mr. KENNEDY. This is the fellow that you had up in the Twin Cities; is that right?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Yes. He was getting too much publicity on trying to get naturalization papers.

Mr. KENNEDY. So you sent him down there?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. I got him out of Minneapolis and St. Paul.

Mr. KENNEDY. Was he successful in Florida?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Yes. Still is. I imagine he is No. 1 down there.

Mr. KENNEDY. What about these whip companies? We have had some testimony on those. Did you use that kind of an operation at all?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Did I?

Mr. KENNEDY. Your company, the Wurlitzer Co.?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Yes, they were part of it, and a distributor, if you are locked out, they had a sacred location agreement, and if we found out about it, we would throw in a lot of equipment, put it out on location, get solicitors to get the locations, follow up on these cards I referred to before from the circulars that were sent out to locations, and we would create operations.

Mr. KENNEDY. Why didn't you use the whip company technique in Ohio?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. We did, but we didn't get too far with it.

Mr. KENNEDY. It was just too tough?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. That is right. We tried it very strenuously but we never made it.

Mr. KENNEDY. And you say on occasion where it was necessary, muscle was used; is that right?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Well, what do you call muscle, Mr. Kennedy? I don't know.

Yes, you would have to use some force; as I related, Cleveland was certainly force. St. Louis was force, I would say.

Mr. KENNEDY. Were company officials upset about the use of force? Mr. HAMMERGREN. Company officials, of which I was one, yes, we didn't like it, but we still had to sell jukeboxes. We all knew about it, and we knew what the problems were. We tried to go along with it the best we could.

Mr. KENNEDY. Even if it became necessary that somebody was killed during the course of it?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Well, that is pretty broad, Mr. Kennedy. I don't think we would condone that knowingly, no.

Mr. KENNEDY. I mean if somebody, just in the course of trying to get your boxes distributed, if somebody was killed, that was taken as part of the trade?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. That is one of the liabilities of the business, I would say.

Mr. KENNEDY. You had 300 of these machines a day coming off the line; is that right?

Mr. HAMMERGREN. Well, our top year, as I recall, and again it is memory, I think was about 37,000 for 1 year, right after the war.

Mr. KENNEDY. And there was a question of getting those out? Mr. HAMMERGREN. Yes. They come off the production line pretty fast, and we have had no place to store them, so we sold them, and shipped them out to distributors.

Mr. KENNEDY. And the people that you found as a general rulethe only people that could get this distribution achieved were these people with the underworld connections, as a practical matter? Mr. HAMMERGREN. Yes, that is true.

Mr. KENNEDY. Could you explain why that would be so? Is that because the locations are so vulnerable to this kind of pressure?