Mr. KENNEDY. Did you ever identify him?
Mr. LICHTMAN. Yes, I identified his picture.
Mr. KENNEDY. Who is he known as ?

Mr. LICHTMAN. I don't know who he is.

Mr. KENNEDY. Is this Blackie? Did Blackie tell you anything about himself?

Mr. LICHTMAN. Well, he told me that he did a bit up in Westerfield prison and I better not fool around up in Westchester County, because if I do I would only get the worst of it.

He said, "You take my advice and stay out of Westchester entirely." Mr. KENNEDY. The worst of it; what did that mean?

Mr. LICHTMAN. Some harm would come to me.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to see if you can identify this picture. I hand you a picture here which bears No. 73059, New York City Police. Will you examine it and state if you identify the person? (A photograph was handed to the witness.)

Mr. LICHTMAN. Yes, that is Blackie.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the Blackie that you are talking about? Mr. LICHTMAN. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. Whatever his name is, you don't know except that is the Blackie you are testifying about?

Mr. LICHTMAN. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. That picture may be made Exhibit No. 11.

(Document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 11" for reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.)

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know anything about the background of this fellow Blackie?

Mr. LICHTMAN. Well, subsequently I found out, or when I met him at an operators' meeting, when I was talking to some mechanics, he tried to chase me out of the offices and prevented me from talking to the mechanics in this operators' place. He said, "I want you to know I did a bit up in Westerfield, and if you don't stop fooling around with me you will get yourself hurt some way or other, and stay out of Westchester County."

The CHAIRMAN. This Blackie tried to run you out of Westchester County?

Mr. LICHTMAN. He told me to stay out.

Mr. KENNEDY. Could we have a member of the staff identify the background of Mr. Blackie?

The CHAIRMAN. You have not been sworn, have you?

Mr. CORRIGAN. I have not been.

The CHAIRMAN. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CORRIGAN. I do.

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH CORRIGAN

The CHAIRMAN. State your name, your present employment and occupation.

Mr. CORRIGAN. My name is Joseph Corrigan, and I am a detective in the New York City Police Department. I am assigned to the criminal intelligence squad of the New York City Police Department.

The CHAIRMAN. How long have you been with the New York Police Department?

Mr. CORRIGAN. Eleven years, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Proceed.

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Corrigan, do you have the police sheet or the background on the individual that is identified as "Blackie"? Mr. CORRIGAN. Yes, sir, I do.

Mr. KENNEDY. Who is that man?

Mr. CORRIGAN. That man is Lawrence Centore, C-e-n-t-o-r-e. Mr. KENNEDY. Briefly, what is his number of arrests and convictions?

Mr. CORRIGAN. On the sheet here, sir, he has 12 arrests, showing 1 conviction.

Mr. KENNEDY. In 1932 he received a 7-10 year sentence for a payroll holdup?

Mr. CORRIGAN. In 1931 on this sheet, sir. In 1932 he was sentenced. Mr. KENNEDY. In 1942 he was admitted to Fordham Hospital suffering from gunshot wounds?

Mr. CORRIGAN. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. He has been charged with robbery a number of times and felonious assault and burglary?

Mr. CORRIGAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Thank you.

TESTIMONY OF CHARLES LICHTMAN-Resumed

Mr. KENNEDY. Now, you still decided you wanted to get your union back, and did you go back up there?

Mr. LICHTMAN. I went back there a number of times, but I found out that Mr. Getlan had a pretty good hold on it because he had brought in some mobsters in the picture.

Mr. KENNEDY. You talked to a man by the name of Valachi?
Mr. LICHTMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Who is Valachi?

Mr. LICHTMAN. I happened to know Valachi from around Harlem and he thought he could straighten it up for me.

The CHAIRMAN. This police record of this man Lawrence Centore, may be made exhibit 11A.

(Document referred to was marked "Exhibit 11A" for reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.)

Mr. KENNEDY. He is an associate of Anthony "Strollo," alias Tony Bender, and Vincent Morro, convicted of violation of the Federal narcotics laws, conspiracy, in 1956 and sentenced to 5 years. He has 17 arrests, and 5 convictions. You contacted him to try to get help? Mr. LICHTMAN. No. He contacted me, and he said he could straighten it up for me.

Mr. KENNEDY. He told you he could straighten it up?

Mr. LICHTMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. What happened then?

Mr. LICHTMAN. So he had me go up to a bar on 180th Street and Southern Boulevard, and I don't know what happened, and I sat out in front of the bar.

Mr. KENNEDY. Who was that who met at the bar?

Mr. LICHTMAN. Well, I met Getlan there and I saw this Blackie there, and this Mr. Valachi went in the backroom and they had a meeting.

Mr. KENNEDY. Who was in the backroom?

Mr. LICHTMAN. I don't know who was in the back.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you know Jimmy "Blue Eyes" was in the backroom?

Mr. LICHTMAN. I didn't see him myself, and I saw a party, Tommy Milo.

Mr. KENNEDY. M-i-l-o?

Mr. LICHTMAN. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. A notorious gangster in New York?

Mr. LICHTMAN. I imagine so.

Mr. KENNEDY. Jimmy "Blue Eyes" Alo?
Mr. LICHTMAN. I didn't see him.

Mr. KENNEDY. Ratteni?

Mr. LICHTMAN. I didn't see him there.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you know he was there?

Mr. LICHTMAN. I know they were hoodlums, but I don't know who they were. I recognized one of them.

Mr. KENNEDY. They had a meeting as to who was to control the jukebox union in Westchester?

Mr. LICHTMAN. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. What did they decide?

Mr. LICHTMAN. From what they told me at that time, Valachi told me at that time, that my partner, Jimmy Cagginao, took $500 and sold me out and for that reason I couldn't get anything back there no

more.

Mr. KENNEDY. This meeting in the backroom of the bar decided that you should not have the union, that it should stay with Mr. Getlan?

Mr. LICHTMAN. That is right. "You have no racket connections, you are nobody, so you are out."

Mr. KENNEDY. You had Mr. Valachi, who has a pretty good record. Mr. LICHTMAN. He was just trying to deceive, which I knew he couldn't do nothing, but I wanted to see what he was going to say. Mr. KENNEDY. So anyway, it was decided that you were finished? Mr. LICHTMAN. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did Valachi say that there was any way of reversing this decision?

Mr. LICHTMAN. Well, he said at the time that there could be a reversal if you take care of some people. I said, "What do you mean take care of some people?" And he said, "Well, you have to put four people on the payroll and take care of everybody."

I said, "Look, I don't want this Westchester deal. I don't want nothing with the union up there. Forget about the whole thing." I made up my mind to forget the whole thing because I wasn't going to share anything with anybody.

Mr. KENNEDY. Actually, this was a rather profitable area, operation, that you were discussing, was it not?

Mr. LICHTMAN. Well, it amounted to about 4,000 machines in Westchester County.

Mr. KENNEDY. Which, of course, is not just the dues of the employees.

Mr. LICHTMAN. 60 cents for labor for 4,000 machines, and $3 a month dues for each mechanic.

Mr. KENNEDY. So that would be $3 or $4,000 a month?

Mr. LICHTMAN. Around three or four thousand dollars a month.

Mr. KENNEDY. How far up did that extend?

Mr. LICHTMAN. Well, it was only Westchester County, as far as I was concerned, but I understand that when Getlan got there, he went all the way up to Syracuse.

Mr. KENNEDY. So that would have included even more than 4,000 machines?

Mr. LICHTMAN. Yes; very much more. He started to climb from one county to another until he got up to Syracuse.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you understand the connection with Tommy Milo? Do you know what Getlan's connection with Tommy Milo was?

Mr. LICHTMAN. Well, when Getlan first come with me, and he was up there, I heard him mention a man by the name of Tommy Milo. I said to him, "Who is this Tommy Milo?" He said, "Some racket guy that owns a bar in Yonkers somewhere."

I said, "Look, I don't want you to go near any racket people."

Mr. KENNEDY. Yes; but where did he say his connection was?

Mr. LICHTMAN. His brother.

Mr. KENNEDY. His brother; Getlan's brother?

Mr. LICHTMAN. Did time with Milo's nephew, at that time he told That is how Getlan was able to contact this Milo.

me.

Mr. KENNEDY. All right.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you anything, Senator?

Senator CHURCH. How long has it been that you have been out of this coin-operating union business?

Mr. LICHTMAN. Seven or eight years.

Mr. KENNEDY. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. Call the next witness.

Mr. KENNEDY. We have an affidavit in the form of a letter from Jack Altman, of the Retail, Wholesale, and Department Store Union, CIO, which I would like to read the pertinent parts of into the record, after you examine it.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. The affidavit will be admitted in evidence. It will be made exhibit No. 12. You may read the pertinent parts of it.

(Affidavit referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 12" for reference and will be found in the files of the select committee.)

Mr. KENNEDY (reading):

In 1951 I was the vice president of the Retail, Wholesale, and Department Store Union, CIO. I was also its eastern regional director, which area covered that of New York. At a meeting of the international executive board of the above-mentioned union held in Atlantic City on March 27, 1951, it was moved, seconded, and carried unanimously that Charles Lichtman and local 254 shall be suspended from the international union, pending investigation in accordance with the international constitution, article 13, sections II and VII.

A hearing committee was thereafter appointed by President Irving Simon, now deceased, which called Mr. Lichtman and all local officers to appear and give reasons why the charter in local 254 should not be resolved. The officers of the local failed to appear and the charter was automatically revoked.

The reasons for this action, to the best of my recollection, were as follows: (1) The international union was reluctant to have any local union functioning in the coin machine field because the industry itself was under suspicion as being run by shady elements.

(2) The practice of selling union labels to this industry lent itself to abuse. (3) The complaints had been made to the Brooklyn district attorney by some employers that while not substantiated seemed to have some element of truth. (4) Most of the activity of the local seemed to be to adjudicate and allot territory for coin machine owners and not to improve conditions of the workers. We didn't know whether the membership of local 254 consisted of workers or employers.

(5) We had heard rumors that Mr. Lichtman was operating with an A.F. of L. charter at the same time as that of a CIO. We were shown labels that Mr. Lichtman was accused of selling that bore an A.F. of L. union name and not that of local 254, CIO.

For all these reasons and because the field was suspect, our international executive board was glad to get rid of this local.

It is signed Jack Altman, vice president.
The CHAIRMAN. Call the next witness.
Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Theodore Blatt.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Blatt. Be sworn.

You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. BLATT. I do.

TESTIMONY OF THEODORE BLATT

The CHAIRMAN. State your name, your place of residence, and your business or occupation.

Mr. BLATT. My name is Theodore Blatt. I live at 1515 East Eighth Street, in the Borough of Brooklyn, city of New York. I am an attorney duly admitted to practice in the State of New York, with offices at 32 Broadway, Manhattan.

The CHAIRMAN. You waive counsel, of course?

Mr. BLATT. I do, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Proceed.

Mr. KENNEDY. I would like to have Mr. May question this witness. The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. May.

Mr. MAY. Mr. Blatt, you became associated with an employers' group, an association, in 1932, called the Greater New York Operators Association?

Mr. BLATT. That is right. When you say "associated" I was retained by them as counsel.

Mr. MAY. You served as counsel for the association?

Mr. BLATT. Yes, sir.

Mr. MAY. Around 1936 to 1937, was there a meeting called to consider a merger with another association called Amalgamated?

Mr. BLATT. Let me say this at the outset. I am an active practitioner. When you ask me questions about something that happened in 1936 or 1937, my best answers will be mere conjecture or guesswork. I don't recall. There may have been. There was some talk of trying to consolidate two existing operators' associations.

You see, there was one operators' association in the Borough of Brooklyn and Queens and there was another one of operators who operated in Manhattan and the Bronx.