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Mr. KASPER. Not necesssarily.
Mr. KENNEDY. But that followed very frequently?

Mr. KASPER. There weren't too many. I think in most cases the union would maintain the membership of that member provided he continued to pay his dues and they would provide pickets to force him to remain in the union.

Mr. KENNEDY. There was also arrangement whereby if a nonassociation member came and jumped the location of an association member, you would provide the association member with a list of locations of the nonassociation member, so that he in turn could be jumping his locations?

Mr. KASPER. If we had the locations we would provide them, yes. Mr. KENNEDY. Now, a trustee was placed in local 433; is that right? Mr. KASPER. That is correct, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. That is when it was taken over by the Retail Clerks; is that right?

Mr.KASPER. The internatioanl; yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. At that time the Retail Clerks were anxious for local 888 of the Retail Clerks to replace them?

Mr. KASPER. That is right, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. Was the association against that?

Mr. KASPER. No, not primarily at first, and they sat by quietly while negotiations were carried on.

Mr. KENNEDY. Well, was there a problem about the fact that if this was going to be a legitimate union that wasn't going to charge for label fees, the association was against it?

Mr. KASPER. The association tried to make contact with 888 some time after the charter was suspended and the officers of 888 wouldn't have anything to do with label charges and they just wanted the monthly dues.

Mr. KENNEDY. And the association, however, wanted a union that would be able to finance pickets?

Mr. KASPER. They felt that it wouldn't be sufficient to finance pickets.

Mr. KENNEDY. So they went to look for another union?
Mr. KASPER. Not for quite some time.
Mr. KENNEDY. Well, subsequently.
Mr. KASPER. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. They were willing initially to go in with local 888 but then when local 838 would only charge for the dues of the employees who were members of the union, the association was not interested because they felt that they could not finance the picket lines that were necessary for the association; is that right?

Mr. KASPER. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. This was the servicing that the union was supposed to give to the members of the association.

Mr. KASPER. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. Subsequently, Mr. Caggiano, about whom we had testimony yesterday, reactivated his local 465?

Mr. KASPER. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. And he was willing to take in the label fees and a contract was made with his local?

Mr. KASPER. That is right, it was renegotiated and to obtain the standing he had had prior to the merger with 433.

Mr. KENNEDY. At that time, did the members of the association want you to go into this local and be their representative!

Mr. KASPER. I have been asked that; yes, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. Who asked you to do that?

Mr. KASPER. Several members on the board of directors, and I don't recall because I dismissed it and I thought of the matter no further.

Mr. KENNEDY. They wanted to make sure that the union acted on their behalf and provided the correct servicing and they requested that you go and start to work for the union to make sure that their interests were covered; is that right?

Mr. KASPER. That is right.
Mr. KENNEDY. And you refused to do that?
Mr. KASPER. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. During the period of time when they couldn't make this agreement with local 888 and there was no union, was there much raiding back and forth between the various members of the association?

Mr. KASPER. Not among the members of the association. There was very little among them, but there was much raiding by nonmembers.

Mr. KENNEDY. Raiding of the locations of the members of the association ?

Mr. KASPER. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. And that is what brought about the signing of the contract ultimately with local 465?

Mr. KASPER. There was no contract entered into with 465.
Mr. KENNEDY. Or making the arrangements?
Mr. KASPER. Yes, they were negotiating.
Mr. KENNEDY. Did Mr. Al Cohen then come into the picture with
his local?

Mr. KASPER. He came in with a local on music.
Mr. KENNEDY. What was Mr. Cohen doing?

Mr. KASPER. He was identified with 433, with Caggiano, and subsequently took leave of absence and my understanding is he organized a new union called 531 and playing havoc among the music operators.

Mr. KENNEDY. Was he going around and causing difficulty among certain of the operators in favor of other operators; did you understand that?

Mr. KASPER. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you find that out yourself that he was actively around working on behalf of some of the operators ?

Mr. KASPER. Yes, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. You had your own personal experience with that!
Mr. KASPER. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Now, the association was considering signing a contract then with some five or six different unions, that were active in the field ?

Mr. KASPER. Approximately that many.

Mr. KENNEDY. There was Local 202 of the Teamsters, Local 266 of the Teamsters, and 1690 of the Retail Clerks and 465 of the Federated Union of America, Local 19 of the FSWU; is that right?

Mr. KASPER. I am not familiar with the initials, but the numbers I am.

Mr. KENNEDY. Who was local 19 suggested by?

Mr. KASPER. The first I heard of it was when I met a chap by the name of John, and it is a difficult name, Amalfitano, and Larry Gallo.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you understand Mr. Amalfitano was an individual who had certain underworld connections!

Mr. KASPER. I didn't at the time, but I have learned since. Mr. KENNEDY. And also was it suggested by Bert Jacob, who was a board member?

Mr. KASPER. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. And he said that you could make a contract with local 19 and they would restore peace to the industry?

Mr. KASPER. Yes, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. Actually it was local 19 and some of these same people who were causing the havoc, was it not ?

Mr. KASPER. Later on, when they lost an injunctive suit, same people organized 266.

Mr. KENNEDY. Which is the Teamsters!
Mr. KASPER. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. Now, as to Local 202 of the Teamsters, there was no interest in making a contract with them either because they were not interested in taking money for labels; is that right?

Mr. KASPER. That is true.

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Chairman, Local 202 of the Teamsters of New York has a good reputation, and a very legitimate union, and this once again shows that the association was not interested in making a contract with really a legitimate union as they could have with these people, but only with a union that would take extra money to pay pickets, which was really the purpose of making the contract.

Mr. KASPER. At a general meeting

The CHAIRMAN. Local 202 was a good union, in spite of the international leadership?

Mr. KENNEDY. That is correct, but ultimately they did sign the contract with Local 266 of the Teamsters, which is the local union of the Teamsters in New York which is run by the gangsters.

Mr. KASPER. May I clarify that a moment?

The CHAIRMAN. You say “run by the gangsters.”. Was that 266 already in existence or was it created specifically for this purpose ?

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. DeGrandis was an official of another union, and he was expelled because of the way he was operating. We will have testimony on that. He set up local 266 of the Teamsters, and he has a police record.

Local 202 of the Teamsters had jurisdiction over this industry, and the joint council 16 under Mr. O'Rourke stepped in and took jurisdiction away from the legitimate Teamsters Union and gave it to the Teamsters Union that is gangster-run.

The CHAIRMAN. That is 266 ?
Mr. KASPER. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Was 266 already in existence?

Mr. KENNEDY. No, it came into existence during this period of time, in 1955.

Mr. KASPER. At a general meeting, there were four unions mentioned, and the membership voted.

The CHAIRMAN. It is pretty well established, then, the purpose of establishing 266 was to do the dirty job that 202 refused to do.

Mr. KASPER. Well, no, it is not that way. It is not that simple. 202 was the union voted upon to enter into negotiations for a contract at a general meeting. A day or two later it was reported to me that there was a central trades committee among the Teamster officials, and that 202 had no jurisdiction, and 202 I understand was a member of the Hickey group, which was considered an honest group, and 266 was considered a member of the O'Rourke group, considered a dishonest group.

The CHAIRMAN. What I was trying to get at, 266 was in existence, and it had already been established prior to this controversy?

Mr. KASPER. No, sir, 266 came about after the voting of 202.
The CHAIRMAN. I am trying to get the record clear.

Mr. KASPER. I hadn't heard of 266 until 2 days after the meeting, when 202 was voted upon.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Proceed.
Mr. KASPER. In spite of the no-label charges.

Mr. KENNEDY. When 202 refused to accept or make this arrangement accepting extra money for the labels, and then when joint council 16 ruled in favor of local 266, a contract was made with local 266 of the Teamsters.

Mr. KASPER. Not with the AAMONY at the time.
Mr. KENNEDY. Subsequently it was.
Mr. KASPER. Yes, after some hard work.
The CHAIRMAN. How long subsequently?

Mr. KASPER. Not to jump the gun, but prior to that when the association refused to sign with 266, a group of board members of the association and a group of nonmembers whom we have had a lot of difficulty with formed the United Coin Machine, and it was they who signed with 266. Mr. KENNEDY. A rival association, was it? Mr. KASPER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How long afterward was it before this was finally done?

Mr. KASPER. Very shortly thereafter. The CHAIRMAN. This was all happening very fast! Mr. KASPER. I think it was all prearranged. Mr. KENNEDY. The group that had formerly been backing local 19, fellows like Burt Jacobs, they then went over to local 266 ?

Mr. KASPER. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. And the local 19 is the local, Mr. Chairman, that was described to us yesterday. The people that were the heads of it were the people who were the inheritors or people who followed from Murder, Inc. They also were a gangster group.

When the association refused to go along with them, this group within the association backed local 266 and walked out of the association and brought this group with them, and then they signed a contract with local 266.

Mr. KASPER. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. That was a rival association called United Coin; is that right?

Mr. KASPER. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. That was made up to a large extent by the board members of A AMONY?

Mr. KASPER. Not all of the board members. There were about 40 percent of them.

Mr. KENNEDY. Of the board members went over with this new group?

Mr. KASPER. That is true.

Mr. KENNEDY. Subsequently, local 266 began picketing the other members who were interested in getting or obtaining a contract with a legitimate union ?

Mr. KASPER. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. Then, did the association ultimately, because of the pressure that was being placed on them by local 266 and the Teamsters and these association members that walked out, did they subsequently decide that they would join together with United Coin?

Mr. KASPER. That is right.
Mr. KENNEDY. And they moved into their office, did they?
Mr. KASPER. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. Is that because of the pressure that local 266 was able to place on you?

Mr. KASPER. That is right.
Mr. KENNEDY. Did you move over yourself?

Mr. KASPER. I refused when the truckmen arrived to take the records and the furniture. I was instructed. I took my orders at that time from the president, and the board passes on their orders, and I have obeyed the president's instructions and he told me not to allow anybody to move anything out of the office.

Mr. KENNEDY. Subsequently did you?

Mr. KASPER. Pressure was brought upon the president and he reversed his orders.

The CHAIRMAN. Can you describe the pressure that you refer to? Mr. KASPER. Only from guesswork, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. 'Well, you have a pretty accurate guess about it, haven't you?

Mr. KASPER. The pressure was brought upon him, “Either you move over or we will continue to picket your members.'

The CHAIRMAN. What is that?

Mr. KASPER. “You move over the records to the new office, that is the United, move your records and we don't care about your furniture, and all we want is your records, and move them over to our office and if you refuse to do it we will continue the pickets.”

There was a moratorium set on the pickets, and pickets were removed, and the small operators were crying and they had their life savings invested and they were losing locations because of the pickets and the owners of the bars and grills wouldn't have any disputes with any union, and so these operators were asked to remove their equipment.

The CHAIRMAN. It was an economic pressure applied by the union?
Mr. KASPER. Exactly.
The CHAIRMAN. And in a collusion with the association.
Mr. KASPER. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Where it involved the Teamsters, it was that much more powerful because they could cut off all of the deliveries to the tavern.

Mr. KASPER. That has already been established, too, and they have stopped deliveries.

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