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Mr. KENNEDY. Did you look at any of the books?

Mr. CAGGIANO. No, I didn't look at the books, because I never went to that department of the books. I took the bookkeeper's word.

Mr. KENNEDY. Who was the bookkeeper?

Mr. CAGGIANO. The bookkeeper was the girl by the name of Sylvia Goldberg

Mr. KENNEDY. Did she tell you that or did Mr. Cohen tell you?
Mr. CAGGIANO. Well, I don't recall now.

Mr. KENNEDY. He received $200 a week for some 412 months after he submitted his letter asking for a leave of absence, and some 342 months after he submitted his letter of resignation. Even considering the 312 months, that is about $2,500.

Mr. CAGGIANO. Well, he said he had much more money coming to him. I don't know.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you ever check to find out if he should receive that much?

Mr. CAGGIANO. No. I assumed that was correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. Just the fact that he said so, and you continued to keep him on the payroll without checking it?

You were president of the local at the time. Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right. Mr. KENNEDY. You never checked to find out? Mr. Caggiano. Well, I felt they were competent enough to know what was being done, and the accountant I felt knew what he was doing also, so I believed it so.

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Chairman, we have examined the books and records.

Could I call a witness on that point?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Cofini.

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT J. COFINI-Resumed

The CHAIRMAN. You have been previously sworn ? Mr. COFINI. Yes, I have. The CHAIRMAN. Proceed. Mr. KENNEDY. Up to what date did Mr. Cohen continue to receive his salary?

Mr. COFINI. The last salary payment was on March 15, 1957.

Mr. KENNEDY. Is it correct that he submitted a letter asking for a leave of absence on October 18, 1956!

Mr. COFINI. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. And that he submitted a letter of resignation on November 30, 1958?

Mr. COFINI. True.

Mr. KENNEDY. And he actually continued to draw his salary until the time that the union was placed in trusteeship by the Retail Clerks International Association; is that right?

Mr. COFINI. That is right.
Mr. KENNEDY. That was in March of 1957 ?
Mr. COFINI. March of 1957.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have the total amount that he drew during that period of time, from the time he went on leave of absence on October 18, up until the 15th of March, 1957?

Mr. COFINI. Yes, sir; I have. $2,200.
The CHAIRMAN. $2,2009
Mr. COFINI. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. That was drawn after he took the leave of absence, and after he had also resigned ?

Mr. COFINI. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. That is from November 30, 1956; not from October 18, 1956.

The CHAIRMAN. I asked you the amount from October 18. What is the amount from October 18?

Mr. COFINI. The records we have only show from January 4, 1957, from that time up until March 15, 1957, totaling $2,200.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not quite understand it. Did he draw pay from October 18, from the time he took his leave? Did he draw pay continuously after that?

Mr. Cofini. Yes, he did. However, the records do not go back that far.

The CHAIRMAN. How do you know, then, if the records do not go back that far?

Mr. COFINI. I just have the figures from January 4, 1957, which was also subsequent to the time he resigned.

The CHAIRMAN. But he did draw from January 4, 1957, to March 15, 1957; is that right? Mr. COFINI. That is correct. The CHAIRMAN. That is what your books show? Mr. COFINI. That is what the books show. The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any record of whether he drew this salary of $200 a week between October 18, 1956, and January 4, 1957?

Mr. COFINI. No; I do not have those.

The CHAIRMAN. You have no records of whether he drew it at that time or not?

Mr. COFINI. No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Why? Are the records not available?
Mr. COFINI. The records are incomplete; that is right.
The CHAIRMAN. The records are incomplete!
Mr. COFINI. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. The assumption is, I guess, and it might be indulged, that he probably drew the salary continuously?

Mr. COFINI. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. While the records are not complete, if he had drawn it continuously from October 18 through January 4 and on until March 15, 1957, what would he have drawn?

Mr. COFINI. Approximately $3,000.
Mr. KENNEDY. About $4,500.

The CHAIRMAN. You have $2,200 here. What was he drawing$200 a week?

Mr. COFINI. $200 a week; that is right. It is about $4,500; that is right.

The CHAIRMAN. From October 18 until March 15, that would be how many weeks?

Mr. COFINI. About 12 or 13 weeks.
The CHAIRMAN. Twelve or thirteen weeks?
Mr. COFINI. Thirteen weeks.

The CHAIRMAN. How much was he drawing-$200 a week?
Mr. COFINI. That is right.
The CHAIRMAN. That would be $2,400.

Mr. KENNEDY. Senator, it is about 10 weeks, so that makes it about $4,200, or approximately $4,200 if you take it from October 18, 1956, and if you take it from November 30, 1956, deduct about $1,200 from that, which brings it down to about $3,000.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, at least the records show he got $2,200 ?
Mr. COFINI. That is correct.
Mr. KENNEDY. Thank you, Mr. Cofini.

Isn't it correct that he continued-after he set up this other union, he continued to control local 433, and that is why he received this money?

TESTIMONY OF JAMES CAGGIANO—Resumed

Mr. CAGGIANO. No.

Mr. KENNEDY. Local union 433 was placed in trusteeship, by the Retail Clerks International Association; is that right!

Mr. CAGGIANO. I didn't get that.

Mr. KENNEDY. Your union was taken over by the Retail Clerks International and placed in trusteeship?

Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right.
Mr. KENNEDY. What did you do then?

Mr. CAGGIANO. Well, to begin with, I didn't know what was taking place. The Retail Clerks International somehow or other-someone put a call into the office and advised Mrs. Sylvia Goldberg that someone is coming up to the office to take all of the records and take the entire office over.

So Mrs. Goldberg took some of the records and she put them in the next door. When I tried to get into the office the following day, I found a new lock on the door so I couldn't get into the office. The international representatives broke into the door and put their own lock and took over the entire thing without notifying us in any way.

Mr. KENNEDY. So you were out?
Mr. CaggiANO. We were out completely.
Mr. KENNEDY. And they were in the office.
Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right.
Senator CHURCH. That was in 1957; is that right?
Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right.

Senator CHURCH. And the international came in and simply took over the management of the union and imposed a trusteeship at that time?

Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right. That is right; without notifying us in any way.

Senator CHURCH. And having taken over the local headquarters, they put their own locks on the door and made an effort to get hold of the books, and so forth?

Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right.
Senator CHURCH. Were they successful in getting hold of the books?
Mr. Caggiano. Well, no; not at that time, because

Senator CHURCH. You had taken the precaution of putting some of the books in the next room, did I understand you to say?

Mr. Caggiano. Yes, some. But we did this: I took their lock off and put my own lock on.

Senator CHURCH. Then what happened?

Mr. CAGGIANO. Well, I called a meeting, an executive board meeting, and I explained to the members what took place, and they voted to call a general meeting. We called the general meeting and we went back to local 465.

Senator CHURCH. In other words
Mr. CAGGIANO. Independently.

Senator CHURCH. In other words, when the International Retail Clerks came in and established a trusteeship and attempted to take over management of the union, after you got back into possession of the headquarters, you called a meeting and then went out and established an independent union again?

Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right. That is right.

Senator CHURCH. This is the second time you moved out and established an independent?

Mr. CAGGIANO. I was forced to move out. Let's put it that way. I was forced to move out.

Senator CHURCH. By the International Retail Clerks attempting to impose a trusteeship over your local!

Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. Who else was in 433 with you? What other people did you have other than the game people?

Mr. CAGGIANO. We had the radiator repair servicemen.
Mr. KENNEDY. Radiator repair servicemen?
Mr. CAGGIANO. Auto radiator repair servicemen.
Mr. KENNEDY. Are they the ones that showed up at the meeting?
Mr. CAGGIANO. The majority of them, I would say.

Mr. KENNEDY. So it was really the auto radiator repairmen that decided to go independent with you as the head?

Mr. CAGGIANO. Well, we had some of the coin-machine industry. Let me put it this way, please: In our industry, the coin-machine industry, I kept calling the meetings from time to time. There was always a very poor attendance that was made every time we used to call meetings in the coin-machine industry.

It was nothing new to me not to find any of the coin-machine industry. We would send out letters to that effect, about what took place with the Retail Clerks. That is why we have a very poor attendance from the coin-machine industry.

Mr. KENNEDY. Now, after you went independent, then did you take them into another international union?

Mr. CAGGIANO. Yes.
Mr. KENNEDY. What union was it then?
Mr. CAGGIANO. The same union; local 465.

Mr. KENNEDY. Of what? Did you affiliate with an international union?

Mr. CAGGIANO. I applied for a charter with the Confederated Unions of America.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you, when you went out and went independent again, who got the money or the assets of the union, and were you able to keep that along with some of the records?

Mr. CAGGIANO. Yes, we have that.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, the trustee didn't get your records or your

finances ? 36751-59-pt. 46

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Mr. CAGGIANO. They did get the records later on. What we did then, the attorney for the union and the attorney for the International of Retail Clerks arranged an oppointment up in the office, in the New York office, to establish a hearing, and Mr. Almond, who was vice president of the International, advised me that he can't do anything until I would permit him or the accountant to go over the books and a full report should be made.

The CHAIRMAN. When you went back independent, after they undertook to take you over into trusteeship, then you went independent again?

Mr. CAGGIANO. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What I am trying to determine is this: Were you able to salvage your money!

Mr. CAGGIANO. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Whatever you had on hand you kept that?
Mr. CAGGIANO. That is correct; yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. That went back into local 465 ?
Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. So you had the money to operate on, and they didn't get it?

Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right.
The CHAIRMAN. OK.
Mr. KENNEDY. What has happened to the radiator repairmen ?

Mr. CAGGIANO. Well, I haven't followed up on it. I have their welfare money yet in the bank.

Mr. KENNEDY. These radiator repairmen, where are they and what has happened to them? Mr. CAGGIANO. Well, I don't know what happened to them.

Mr. KENNEDY. They came to your meeting, voted to go independent, and what happened to them since then?

Mr. CAGGIANO. Nothing happened to them.
Mr. KENNEDY. Are they still in your union?

Mr. CAGGIANO. Well, I don't know what is to be done with the welfare money, because I am just waiting to see what is going to happen.

The CHAIRMAN. How much is involved? How much welfare money do you have?

Mr. CAGGIANO. Around $500.

The CHAIRMAN. They have just disappeared, the radiator repairmen?

Mr. Caggiano. They didn't disappear; they are still around, but they haven't been organized.

Mr. KENNEDY. So this is the life of a game employee during 4 or 5 years. He went from 254 of the Retail, Wholesale, and Department Store Workers, to 222 of the Jewelry Workers, to 465 of the IUE, United Electrical Workers, to 465 Independent, to 433 of the Retail Clerks, and to 465 Independent, and to 465 Confederated Unions of America.

Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right.
The CHAIRMAN. That is where you are now!
Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the next move? Where are you going next? Do you have any idea!

Mr. CAGGIANO. No. But I would like to establish this, and I would like to go back to the Retail Clerks

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