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Senator CHURCH. Then what happened?

Mr. CAGGIANO. Well, I called a meeting, an executive board meeting, and I explained to the members what took place, and they voted to call a general meeting. We called the general meeting and we went back to local 465.

Senator CHURCH. In other wordsMr. CAGGIANO. Independently. Senator CHURCH. In other words, when the International Retail Clerks came in and established a trusteeship and attempted to take over management of the union, after you got back into possession of the headquarters, you called a meeting and then went out and established an independent union again? Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right. That is right.

Senator CHURCH. This is the second time you moved out and established an independent?

Mr. CAGGIANO. I was forced to move out. Let's put it that way. I was forced to move out.

Senator CHURCH. By the International Retail Clerks attempting to impose a trusteeship over your local! Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. Who else was in 433 with you? What other people did you have other than the game people? Mr. Caggiano. We had the radiator repair servicemen. Mr. KENNEDY. Radiator repair servicemen? Mr. CAGGIANO. Auto radiator repair servicemen. Mr. KENNEDY. Are they the ones that showed up at the meeting? Mr. Caggiano. The majority of them, I would say.

Mr. KENNEDY. So it was really the auto radiator repairmen that decided to go independent with you as the head?

Mr. CAGGIANO. Well, we had some of the coin-machine industry. Let me put it this way, please: In our industry, the coin-machine industry, I kept calling the meetings from time to time. There was always a very poor attendance that was made every time we used to call meetings in the coin-machine industry.

It was nothing new to me not to find any of the coin-machine industry. We would send out letters to that effect, about what took place with the Retail Clerks. That is why we have a very poor attendance from the coin-machine industry. Mr. KENNEDY. Now, after you went independent, then did you

take them into another international union? Mr. CAGGIANO. Yes. Mr. KENNEDY. What union was it then? Mr. CAGGIANO. The same union; local 465.

Mr. KENNEDY. Of what? Did you affiliate with an international union?

Mr. CAGGIANO. I applied for a charter with the Confederated Unions of America.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you, when you went out and went independent again, who got the money or the assets of the union, and

able to keep that along with some of the records? Mr. Caggiano. Yes, we have that.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, the trustee didn't get your records or your finances ?

36751-59—pt. 46

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Mr. CAGGIANO. They did get the records later on. What we did then, the attorney for the union and the attorney for the International of Retail Clerks arranged an oppointment up in the office, in the New York office, to establish a hearing, and Mr. Almond, who was vice president of the International, advised me that he can't do anything until I would permit him or the accountant to go over the books and a full report should be made.

The CHAIRMAN. When you went back independent, after they undertook to take you over into trusteeship, then you went independent again!

Mr. CAGGIANO. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What I am trying to determine is this: Were you able to salvage your money?

Mr. CAGGIANO. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Whatever you had on hand you kept that?
Mr. CaggiANO. That is correct; yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. That went back into local 465 ?
Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. So you had the money to operate on, and they didn't get it?

Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right.
The CHAIRMAN. OK.
Mr. KENNEDY. What has happened to the radiator repairmen?

Mr. CAGGIANO. Well, I haven't followed up on it. I have their welfare money yet in the bank.

Mr. KENNEDY. These radiator repairmen, where are they and what has happened to them?

Mr. CAGGIANO. Well, I don't know what happened to them.

Mr. KENNEDY. They came to your meeting, voted to go independent, and what happened to them since then?

Mr. CAGGIANO. Nothing happened to them.
Mr. KENNEDY. Are they still in your union?

Mr. CAGGIANO. Well, I don't know what is to be done with the welfare money, because I am just waiting to see what is going to happen.

The CHAIRMAN. How much is involved? How much welfare money do you have?

Mr. CAGGIANO. Around $500.

The CHAIRMAN. They have just disappeared, the radiator repairmen?

Mr. Caggiano. They didn't disappear; they are still around, but they haven't been organized.

Nr. KENNEDY. So this is the life of a game employee during 4 or 5 years. He went from 254 of the Retail, Wholesale, and Department Store Workers, to 222 of the Jewelry Workers, to 465 of the IUE, United Electrical Workers, to 465 Independent, to 433 of the Retail Clerks, and to 465 Independent, and to 465 Confederated Unions of America.

Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right.
The CHAIRMAN. That is where you are now?
Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the next move? Where are you going next? Do you have

Do you have any idea? Mr. CAGGIANO. No. But I would like to establish this, and I would like to go back to the Retail Clerks

The CHAIRMAN. Is that where you want to go?

Mr. CAGGIANO. No, I don't want to go there, but I would like to stress this point: The Retail Clerks after advising me or Mr. Almond who was vice president of the Retail Clerks advised me to give him a full report on the activity of local 433, and all of the documents. He said to me that he was going to give me or give us a hearing.

The CHAIRMAN. What is that?

Mr. CAGGIANO. A hearing on what took place at the executive board, which was never done. That is why the International, I feel, that International is not living up to their constitution.

Senator CHURCH. Did you say that you wanted to go back to the Retail Clerks?

Mr. CAGGIANO. I wanted to know exactly why.

Senator CHURCH. Why they moved in to take over and established a trusteeship?

Mr. CAGGIANO. They moved in to take over and then they pushed us out of the industry.

The CHAIRMAN. They forced you into their union to begin with, and then they kicked you out and you don't know why they kicked you out?

Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right. We never had a hearing to that effect.

Senator CHURCH. You have been in several international unions in the course of your history here and each time you have had to establish an independent union, and this is the third, or the second or third independent union. Now you are affiliated with another international.

Why is the need to affiliate, since you have such difficulty getting on with these international unions, and why do you need to affiliate? Why don't you just continue independent !

Mr. CAGGIANO. Well, I say this: That the association of game people, the Game Association, wanted to have a union that was affiliated in order for us to conduct business.

Senator CHURCH. In other words, the operators themselves wanted you to have a home with some international union that was recognized as a legitimate union.

Mr. CaggiANO. Yes, more or less.

Senator CHURCH. And it was really then in their interest and in the interest of the appearance of things that you have an affiliation with one of these international unions.

Mr. CaggiaNO. It was suggested that it would be more recognized by having an international behind a local union.

Senator CHURCH. Having a brand name, so to speak, and more prestige and being affiliated with what was recognized as a legitimate union organization.

Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right. I mean a legitimate international.
Senator CHURCH. It is more respectable.
Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right.

While you are asking me, and that is on the record, I have been with the IBE, and I have been with the IUE, and I have been with the Retail Clerks, and I never got a fair decision made.

The CHAIRMAN. You have not had a fair decision made in any of them?

Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right; that is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. The only time you get justice then is when you are independent !

Mr. CAGGIANO. I didn't get justice then. I was raided.

Mr. KENNEDY. Are they treating you well now, the Confederated Union ?

Mr. CAGGIANO. Yes, I say yes; and I think they are more living up to their rules, and it is a fine

organization. Mr. KENNEDY. Is that a rival organization to the AFL-CIO?

Mr. CAGGIANO. You may call it that, because all internationals that don't belong to the AFL-CIO, are rival internationals.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further?
How many members do you say you have now?
Mr. CAGGIANO. I have about 35 right now, paid members.
The CHAIRMAN. About 35 paying members ?
Mr. CAGGIANO. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. You are in competition now with Mr. DeGrandis of local 266 ?

Mr. CaggiANO. Yes; that is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. The people have a choice between your union and Mr. DeGrandis'?

Mr. CAGGIANO. They will.
Mr. KENNEDY. You are going to go after them now?
Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right.
The CHAIRMAN. All right. Thank you very much.
Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Abraham Gilbert.
The CHAIRMAN. Will you be sworn ?

You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. GILBERT. I do.

a

TESTIMONY OF ABRAHAM GILBERT The CHAIRMAN. State your name, your place of residence, and your business or occupation.

Mr. GILBERT. Abraham Gilbert, residing at 1697 Andrews Avenue, New York City. Occupation is taxi driver.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. Do you waive counsel, do you?

Mr. GILBERT Yes; I do.
The CHAIRMAN. Proceed.

Mr. KENNEDY. Prior to 1952, Mr. Gilbert, you operated a game repair shop on 10th Avenue, New York City; is that right? Mr. GILBERT. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. And you knew many of the people in the game and jukebox business?

Mr. GILBERT. Almost everybody.

Mr. KENNEDY. In December of 1952, you were doing some renovating work in the office of local 465 ?

Mr. GILBERT. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. At that time was 465 in the IBEW, or I think it was in the IUREM?

Mr. GILBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. While you were doing the renovating work, one of the officers or organizers of the local, Joseph Hirsch, resigned ?

Mr. GILBERT. That is right. Mr. KENNEDY. And whereupon the union president, Mr. Caggiano, offered you the position of office manager.

Mr. GILBERT. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. So you stopped being the repairman and the renovator in the office and became the office manager of the local union ?

Mr. GILBERT. That is right.
Mr. KENNEDY. And you accepted the position?
Mr. GILBERT. I did.
Mr. KENNEDY. Then did you hold any other position other than
office manager?

Mr. GILBERT. I was the vice president of the union.
Mr. KENNEDY. You were vice president also ?
Mr. GILBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. You were elected to that position ?
Mr. GILBERT. I was elected.
Mr. KENNEDY. Did you hold any other position?
Mr. GILBERT. That is all.

Mr. KENNEDY. Well, the records show that you were elected on July 1, 1953, as financial secretary, did you know that?

Mr. GILBERT. I may have been, and I don't remember,

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you know up to this moment that you had been secretary, financial secretary, of the union?

Mr. GILBERT. I didn't, no.
Mr. KENNEDY. Did you ever sign any checks?
Mr. GILBERT. No, I didn't.
Mr. KENNEDY. Did you ever see any of the money?
Mr. GILBERT. Well, I collected the money.

Mr. KENNEDY. I mean did you ever examine the books or handle the money for the union?

Mr. GILBERT. Well, I had charge of the complete office and I handled all of the incoming money.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you sign the checks?
Mr. GILBERT. No, I didn't.
Mr. KENNEDY. Do you know where the money was kept?
Mr. GILBERT. In the Clinton Trust, I believe.
Mr. KENNEDY. Who signed the checks on that?

Mr. GILBERT. I think there were two names, Caggiano and the treasurer, George Kolibash.

Mr. KENNEDY. According to the records you were financial secre

tary.

Mr. GILBERT. He was the treasurer.

The CHAIRMAN. What were the duties of the financial secretary? What was the financial secretary supposed to do?

Mr. GILBERT. Keep the books, and the collection of the dues.
The CHAIRMAN. Did you keep the books?
Mr. GILBERT. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. And collected the dues ?
Mr. GILBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. What did you think Mr. Kolibash was?
Mr. GILBERT. I think that he was treasurer.
Mr. KENNEDY. He was recording secretary.
Mr. GILBERT. All right. I am sorry.

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