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The CHAIRMAN. Is that where you want to go?

Mr. CAGGIANO. No, I don't want to go there, but I would like to stress this point: The Retail Clerks after advising me or Mr. Almond who was vice president of the Retail Clerks advised me to give him a full report on the activity of local 433, and all of the documents. He said to me that he was going to give me or give us a hearing.

The CHAIRMAN. What is that Mr. CAGGIANO. A hearing on what took place at the executive board, which was never done. That is why the International, I feel, that International is not living up to their constitution.

Senator CHURCH. Did you say that you wanted to go back to the Retail Clerks?

Mr. CAGGIANO. I wanted to know exactly why.

Senator CHURCH. Why they moved in to take over and established a trusteeship?

Mr. CAGGIANO. They moved in to take over and then they pushed us out of the industry.

The CHAIRMAN. They forced you into their union to begin with, and then they kicked you out and you don't know why they kicked you out?

Mr. CaggiANO. That is right. We never had a hearing to that effect.

Senator CHURCH. You have been in several international unions in the course of your history here and each time you have had to establish an independent union, and this is the third, or the second or third independent union. Now you are affiliated with another international.

Why is the need to affiliate, since you have such difficulty getting on with these international unions, and why do you need to affiliate? Why don't you just continue independent !

Mr. CAGGIANO. Well, I say this: That the association of game people, the Game Association, wanted to have a union that was affiliated in order for us to conduct business.

Senator CHURCH. In other words, the operators themselves wanted you to have a home with some international union that was recognized as a legitimate union.

Mr. CAGGIANO. Yes, more or less.

Senator CHURCH. And it was really then in their interest and in the interest of the appearance of things that you have an affiliation with one of these international unions.

Mr. Caggiano. It was suggested that it would be more recognized by having an international behind a local union.

Senator CHURCH. Having a brand name, so to speak, and more prestige and being affiliated with what was recognized as a legitimate union organization.

Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right. I mean a legitimate international.
Senator CHURCH. It is more respectable.
Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right.

While you are asking me, and that is on the record, I have been with the IBE, and I have been with the IUE, and I have been with the Retail Clerks, and I never got a fair decision made.

The CHAIRMAN. You have not had a fair decision made in any of them?

Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right; that is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. The only time you get justice then is when you are independent !

Mr. CAGGIANO. I didn't get justice then. I was raided.

Mr. KENNEDY. Are they treating you well now, the Confederated Union !

Mr. CAGGIANO. Yes, I say yes; and I think they are more living up to their rules, and it is a fine organization.

Mr. KENNEDY. Is that a rival organization to the AFL-CIO?

Mr. CAGGIANO. You may call it that, because all internationals that don't belong to the AFL-ČIO, are rival'internationals.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further?
How many members do you say you have now?
Mr. CAGGIANO. I have about 35 right now, paid members.
The CHAIRMAN. About 35 paying members ?
Mr. CAGGIANO. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. You are in competition now with Mr. DeGrandis of local 266 ?

Mr. CAGGIANO. Yes; that is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. The people have a choice between your union and Mr. DeGrandis'?

Mr. CAGGIANO. They will.
Mr. KENNEDY. You are going to go after them now?
Mr. CAGGIANO. That is right.
The CHAIRMAN. All right. Thank you very much.
Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Abraham Gilbert.
The CHAIRMAN. Will you be sworn?

You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. GILBERT. I do.

TESTIMONY OF ABRAHAM GILBERT

you?

The CHAIRMAN. State your name, your place of residence, and your business or occupation.

Mr. GILBERT. Abraham Gilbert, residing at 1697 Andrews Avenue, New York City. Occupation is taxi driver.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. Do you waive counsel, do
Mr. GILBERT Yes; I do.
The CHAIRMAN. Proceed.

Mr. KENNEDY. Prior to 1952, Mr. Gilbert, you operated a game repair shop on 10th Avenue, New York City; is that right? Mr. GILBERT. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. And you knew many of the people in the game and jukebox business?

Mr. GILBERT. Almost everybody.

Mr. KENNEDY. In December of 1952, you were doing some renoyating work in the office of local 465 ?

Mr. GILBERT. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. At that time was 465 in the IBEW, or I think it was in the IUREM?

Mr. GILBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. While you were doing the renovating work, one of the officers or organizers of the local, Joseph Hirsch, resigned?

Mr. GILBERT. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. And whereupon the union president, Mr. Caggiano, offered you the position of office manager.

Mr. GILBERT. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. So you stopped being the repairman and the renovator in the office and became the office manager of the local union?

Mr. GILBERT. That is right.
Mr. KENNEDY. And you accepted the position?
Mr. GILBERT. I did.

Mr. KENNEDY. Then did you hold any other position other than office manager?

Mr. GILBERT. I was the vice president of the union.
Mr. KENNEDY. You were vice president also ?
Mr. GILBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. You were elected to that position?
Mr. GILBERT. I was elected.
Mr. KENNEDY. Did you hold any other position?
Mr. GILBERT. That is all.

Mr. KENNEDY. Well, the records show that you were elected on July 1, 1953, as financial secretary, did you know that?

Mr. GILBERT. I may have been, and I don't remember.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you know up to this moment that you had been secretary, financial secretary, of the union?

Mr. GILBERT. I didn't, no.
Mr. KENNEDY. Did you ever sign any checks ? -
Mr. GILBERT. No, I didn't.
Mr. KENNEDY. Did you ever see any of the money?
Mr. GILBERT. Well, I collected the money.

Mr. KENNEDY. I mean did you ever examine the books or handle the money for the union ?

Mr. GILBERT. Well, I had charge of the complete office and I handled all of the incoming money.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you sign the checks?
Mr. GILBERT. No, I didn't.
Mr. KENNEDY. Do you know where the money was kept?
Mr. GILBERT. In the Clinton Trust, I believe.
Mr. KENNEDY. Who signed the checks on that?

Mr. GILBERT. I think there were two names; Caggiano and the treasurer, George Kolibash.

Mr. KENNEDY. According to the records you were financial secretary.

Mr. GILBERT. He was the treasurer.

The CHAIRMAN. What were the duties of the financial secretary? What was the financial secretary supposed to do?

Mr. GILBERT. Keep the books, and the collection of the dues.
The CHAIRMAN. Did you keep the books?
Mr. GILBERT. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. And collected the dues?
Mr. GILBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. What did you think Mr. Kolibash was?
Mr. GILBERT. I think that he was treasurer.
Mr. KENNEDY. He was recording secretary.
Mr. GILBERT. All right. I am sorry.

Mr. KENNEDY. While you were with the union, you received $75 a week?

Mr. GILBERT. That is right.
Mr. KENNEDY. Salary. And $25 expenses; is that right?
Mr. GILBERT. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. And you remained with the union until June of 1955?

Mr. GILBERT. That is right. Mr. KENNEDY. When the local was merged with 433? Mr. GILBERT. That is right. Mr. KENNEDY. At that time you told Mr. Caggiano there wasn't enough money to pay your salary, and so you were out?

Mr. GILBERT. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. If any company became a member of the game association, it was necessary for the employees of that company to belong to local 465 ?

Mr. GILBERT. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. And AXMONY, the game association, provided the union with a list of the locations of the association members, is that right, lists of the locations?

Mr. GILBERT. Only when they had trouble.

Mr. KENNEDY. When they had trouble, what was the procedure that you would follow then?

Mr. GILBERT. They would send us a note that one of their locations was being breached, and that we should send a picket there.

Mr. KENNEDY. And would you then send the picket around?
Mr. GILBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. Where would you get the picket?

Mr. GILBERT. We had one steady picket and from time to time we would hire somebody off the street.

Mr. KENNEDY. What kind of a picket was this man that you had steady!

Mr. GILBERT. A lovely man. Mr. KENNEDY. How did you happen to select him? Mr. GILBERT. He needed the job and we needed him. The CHAIRMAN. How much did you pay him? Mr. GILBERT. The minimum rate of $1 an hour. The CHAIRMAN. You didn't go over the minimum? Mr. GILBERT. Never. We needed the money ourselves. Mr. KENNEDY. They would call up from the association and tell you where the picket line should be?

Mr. GILBERT. They would furnish a list, and we would decide where to send the picket.

Mr. KENNEDY. Were they very formal when they would call ?
Mr. GILBERT. They had to be.
Mr. KENNEDY. They had to be?
Mr. GILBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. Why was that?
Mr. GILBERT. Well, they were asking for something.
Mr. KENNEDY. What sort of thing would they say?

Mr. GILBERT. Well, they would tell us that one of their members' mechanics had just lost a part of his income because the location was beached and, worrying about our mechanics, we would send the pieket over to the location.

Senator CHURCH. Did the mechanic ever call himself?
Mr. GILBERT. Oh, we insisted on that.

Senator CHURCH. But the original contact was made by the operator.

Mr. GILBERT. Yes; that was to expedite and save time, you know.

Mr. KENNEDY. Then would you make up a little slip showing what needed to be done?

Mr. GILBERT. Exactly.

The CHAIRMAN. I hand you here three handwritten slips, one marked No. 1, and the other marked No. 2, in red, and in order for identification, and I will mark the third one No. 3 in red.

They say the red has some significance.
Mr. GILBERT. Just

make it easy for yourself, Senator. The CHAIRMAN. No. 3 in blue then, and I will hand them to you and I will ask you to examine them and state if you identify them.

(Documents handed to the witness.)
The CHAIRMAN. You have examined them!
Mr. GILBERT. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. What are they?

Mr. GILBERT. These are complaint slips, and the numbers on them indicate the number of their importance.

The CHAIRMAN. Who made out those memorandums?
Mr. GILBERT. I did.
The CHAIRMAN. They are in your handwriting?
Mr. GILBERT. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. They were made out by you in the course of your duties as an officer of that union?

Mr. GILBERT. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. They may be made exhibits Nos. 16A, 16B, and 16C.

(Documents referred to marked "Exhibits 16A, 16B, and 16C” for reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.)

Mr. KENNEDY. Let us just go through one of those slips. I would like to ask you about the procedure followed. On some of those slips you have a figure of "1" in red.

Mr. GILBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. What would that indicate!
Mr. GILBERT. To give it immediate attention, if possible.
Mr. KENNEDY. Some people that got priority; is that right!

Mr. GILBERT. Well, it was a question of giving service to a fellow that had a slip there the longest, because we didn't give service the very same day.

Úr. KENNEDY. So if the "l" was in red, he got some priority; is that correct?

Mr. GILBERT. That is right. All slips in No. 1 were given priority over all that were marked No. 2.

Mr. KENNEDY. You have a slip there that shows “Operator" and it has “Old Reliable Location"; is that right?

Mr. GILBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. Then you give the address?
Mr. GILBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Then it says the location is breached by "Tony or Gus".

Mr. GILBERT. That is right.

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