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Mr. KENNEDY. And it has the date of August 5.
Mr. GILBERT. That is right.
Mr. KENNEDY. It says-
Letter sent September 9, 1953, pickets sent September 14, 1953,
and then
Owner called and is going to move Tony and Gus from his premises.

That was successful, then?
Mr. GILBERT. Sure.
Mr. KENNEDY (reading):
September 16, Joe Madden is going to location to see if he can get back service.
Then-
Spoke to Bill Bartender, who told boss to remove present machine and put back
Joe Madden.

So that was successful!
Mr. GILBERT. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. Let's take another one. This is another slip that concerns the Progressive Amusement Machine Co., Inc., operated by A. Middleburg. This slip contains figure No. 2 in red.

Mr. GILBERT. Yes.
Mr. KENNEDY. That indicates a lesser priority.
Mr. GILBERT. That is right.

May I explain something? No. 1 might take about a week or so to get to the text No. 1, but when we had very little work you could follow No. 2 and if that was successful, another No. 2 may go in 1 day. So there is actually no way of gaging the time between these.

Senator CHURCH. Let me ask this: What was the basis of your assessment of priority? Why were some given priority treatment and others given secondary treatment?

Mr. GILBERT. Because of the length of time that we had the complaint on file.

Mr. KENNEDY. This slip concerning Progressive Amusement Co. would seem to indicate that after the union picketed and the original operator became satisfied, then the operator would remove his complaint in the case and the union would be relieved of the obligation of picket; is that right?

Mr. GILBERT. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. Once you put the picket in, and the association member then became satisfied, he made some arrangement with the man who jumped his location; once that had been done, the picket was removed, is that right?

Mr. GILBERT. Well, if it proved that there was a union serviceman on the machine that was in there.

Mr. KENNEDY. It was just ordinarily a question of the association member being satisfied; was it not? You didn't send somebody out yourself. If the association member was satisfied, that was satisfactory?

Mr. GILBERT. That was satisfactory.

Mr. KENNEDY. You didn't follow up to find out who was going to be servicing those machines from then on?

Mr. GILBERT. We did.
Mr. KENNEDY. Always?

Mr. GILBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. Every time?

Mr. GILBERT. Yes, sir. When we settled a claim, it had to be a union service machine in the location.

Mr. KENNEDY. We have here another slip of paper that I would like to ask you about.

I might say, Mr. Chairman, that on those slips we have a totaland I don't know if we have them all—a total of 231 of those slips.

You were quite busy providing the picket; were you not?
Mr. GILBERT. Our picket worked every day.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair hands you three more slips. Just for purpose of identification, I will mark on those in blue, "4," "5," and “6."

Mr. GILBERT. All right. I am getting used to that color.

The CHAIRMAN. You may examine them and state if you identify them.

(The documents were handed to the witness.)
The CHAIRMAN. Do you recognize those slips?
Mr. GILBERT. Yes, sir. I wrote them.
The CHAIRMAN. You wrote them?
Mr. GILBERT. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. What are they?

Mr. GILBERT. They are requests from the association as to the disposition of the cases mentioned here.

The CHAIRMAN. Those three may be made exhibits Nos. 16-D, 16-E, and 16-F.

(Documents referred to were marked "Exhibits 16–D, 16-E, and 16-F" for reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.)

Mr. KENNEDY. This last slip states at the top, “Association asked about these cases," and then you list the various cases.

Mr. GILBERT. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. That was where the association called to find out if the picket had been placed and how successful you had been?

Mr. GILBERT. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. The union existed, did it not, with the help and assistance of the association ?

Mr. GILBERT. It did.
Mr. KENNEDY. It didn't exist for the employees?

Mr. GILBERT. Well, the employees didn't need a union. They made very good wages.

Mr. KENNEDY. So the group that needed the union was the association member, the operator?

Mr. GILBERT. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. Just going back to this picket once again, he was a rather elderly man, was he?

Mr. GILBERT. That is right.
Mr. KENNEDY. Why did

you get an elderly man? Mr. GILBERT. Well, I got an elderly man because I knew that there would be no violence, he wouldn't look like the type that would attack anybody, and most every time that I sent him to a location I would call the local precinct and tell them that I am placing a picket at such-and-such a bar, one man picketing peacefully.

Mr. KENNEDY. You made a statement to us, I believe, earlier about an asociation, the relationship between an association and a picket, did you not?

Mr. GILBERT. Would you refresh me on it!

Mr. KENNEDY. Well, a statement to the effect of what good is an association without a picket.

Mr. GILBERT. I don't recall making that statement.

Mr. KENNEDY. Well, is that correct? Would you say that that generally follows this arrangement ?

Mr. GILBERT. I don't see how an association can exist without having a picket, the force of a picket. Of course, that is only my opinion.

Mr. KENNEDY. But that summarizes your point of view in what good is an association without a picket?

Mr. GILBERT. That is right.
The CHAIRMAN. You would say you are experienced ?
Mr. GILBERT. I certainly am.
The CHAIRMAN. That fortifies your opinion somewhat?
Mr. GILBERT. Well, I wish I had the knowledge to understand that.

Senator CHURCH. That picket was quite a necessary instrument of the association, was he not?

Mr. GILBERT. Well, it was a byproduct. It turned out to be very useful to them.

Senator CHURCH. Very useful to the association ? Mr. GILBERT. Sure. Mr. KENNEDY. Did you ever find that the picket you sent out picketed the wrong place? Did that happen?

Mr. GILBERT. I don't think that ever happened. Mr. KENNEDY. Did you have any association member ever tele phone you and tell you that the picket wasn't located exactly in the the right place?

Mr. GILBERT. Do you mean his position? Do you mean if he rested, if he wasn't in front of the place when he should be there!

Mr. KENNEDY. Yes.

Mr. GILBERT. Well, that has happened on numerous times. The operator would ride by a location of his that was being picketed and find that the picket was not on duty. He would immediately call the union. I would try to get in touch with the picket to find out why he wasn't working. But being an old man, I allowed him coffee breaks.

Mr. KENNEDY. At one time you placed a picket line at a particular location which later proved to be owned by Frank Breheney; is that right? Mr. GILBERT. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. B-r-e-h-e-n-e-y. We had some testimony on him yesterday. That was the LaSalle Music Co. He is a man with some underworld connections?

Mr. GILBERT. I wouldn't know.

Mr. KENNEDY. Well, did you understand subsequently that he had some underworld connections ?

Mr. GILBERT. I personally don't think so.

Mr. KENNEDY. When you put the picket line in front of the location, did he get angry?

Mr. GILBERT. He did.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did he come to the office and threaten you and Mr. Caggiano

Mr. GILBERT. He threatened me.
Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Caggiano was there?
Mr. GILBERT. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. And Mr. Caggiano said nothing? I mean, he didn't take any position on it; is that right?

Mr. GILBERT. Well, he told him that he was mistaken.
Mr. KENNEDY. So the picket was removed?
Mr. GILBERT. The picket was removed.
Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Breheney was nonunion at the time!
Mr. GILBERT. That is right.
Mr. KENNEDY. And the picket line was removed ?
Mr. GILBERT. That is right.
Mr. KENNEDY. What was the reason for it?

Mr. GILBERT. Well, he took the picket away from the place and brought him back to the union.

Mr. KENNEDY. Why, if he was nonunion? Because Mr. Breheney got so angry?

Mr. GILBERT. I imagine so, and when he took the picket away, the picket got scared and quit and I had no one else to send.

Mr. KENNEDY. Breheney was an associate of Dutch Schultz at one time!

Mr. GILBERT. I wouldn't know about that.
Mr. KENNEDY. Did many people come to your union meetings?
Mr. GILBERT. Not too many.
Mr. KENNEDY. Mostly just the officers?

Mr. GILBERT. The officers and some members that were unionminded.

Mr. KENNEDY. More than two or three?
Mr. GILBERT. Well, sometimes 2 or 3, and sometimes 20.

Mr. KENNEDY. Was the union ever in need of money for operating purposes?

Mr. GILBERT. At the end of each month we were always in need of money to pay the salaries.

Mr. KENNEDY. Where did you get the money?
Mr. GILBERT. Well, Mr. Caggiano would borrow it somewhere.
Mr. KENNEDY. Did he borrow money from the operators!
Mr. GILBERT. Yes.
Mr. KENNEDY. The operators would advance the money!
Mr. GILBERT. Advance the money on future labels.
Mr. KENNEDY. For the operations of the union?
Mr. GILBERT. That is right.
Mr. KENNEDY. Thank you.
Mr. GILBERT. Thank you.
The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions?
Senator CHURCH. I have just one or two, Mr. Chairman.

Did you ever have any dealings directly with the employees, that is to say, did you ever go to them directly and attempt to get them to become members of the union ? Employees of the operators, I mean.

Mr. GILBERT. Employees? Of course. I knew every one of them and I always talked union to them.

Senator CHURCH. Did you ever undertake to do any bargaining for them or on their behalf with the operators concerning wages or hours?

Mr. GILBERT. That wasn't my concern.
Senator CHURCH. That wasn't your concern?
Mr. GILBERT. No. I was just a clerk in the office.

Senator CHURCH. To your knowledge, did the president of local 433 or 465 ever

Mr. GILBERT. I wasn't in 433.
Senator CHURCH. You were in 465 ?
Mr. GILBERT. 465.

Senator CHURCH. Did the president of local 465, to your knowledge, ever have any negotiations concerning wages, hours, or working conditions with the operators ?

Mr. GILBERT. Yes. We had a contract drawn up. Senator CHURCH. Between the union and the operators? Mr. GILBERT. And the operators. Senator CHURCH. You never had any difficulties, though, between the employees and the operators, did you; that is, no strikes or anything?

Mr. GILBERT. We never had any trouble; no. Senator CHURCH. As a matter of fact, would you say that these workers, as far as wages and hours are concerned, were not in need of a union?

Mr. GILBERT. No. They were well paid.

Senator CHURCH. It was just the operators who were in need of a union?

Mr. GILBERT. That is right.
Senator CHURCH. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. All right. Thank you very much.
Mr. GILBERT. Thank you, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Call the next witness.

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Chairman, now we are going to call a person who actively worked at this trade, an employee. I would like to call Mr. George Kolibash.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Kolibash, come forward.

You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. KOLIBASH. I do.

TESTIMONY OF GEORGE KOLIBASH

The CHAIRMAN. What is your name? Mr. KOLIBASH. George Kolibash, 441 West 50th Street. I am a self-employed mechanic.

The CHAIRMAN. You are a self-employed mechanic?
Mr. KOLIBASH. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. You waive counsel, do you, Mr. Kolibash?
Mr. KOLIBASH. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Kennedy.
Mr. KENNEDY. You are a free-lance mechanic; is that right?
Mr. KOLIBASH. Free-lance mechanic.

Mr. KENNEDY. You are engaged in a partnership at the present time with another man?

Mr. KOLIBASH. Yes.

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