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Mr. DENVER. I absolutely refused to listen to any such conversation and told them repeatedly that we were fighting these paper locals with all our strength; that we didn't want to have any part of those paper locals; that we had a collective bargaining agreement with local 1690, which was an honest union, and that we were going to respect our collective bargaining agreement. Then I asked them to leave.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did Jacob tell you that if you went along with this operation and this deal that you could establish a monopoly control in New York City ?

Mr. DENVER. Well, he as much as intimated that with the aid of himself and other people, and a union of their choosing, that a monop, oly would be created. I told him that I would have no part or parcel of any such deal.

Mr. KENNEDY. Was this going to be in the game and jukebox field! Mr. DENVER. Yes. A combination.

Mr. KENNEDY. When you say “as much as intimated," was it stronger than that? Was there some statement made to this effect? Or was that what the purpose of the conversation was!

Mr. DENVER. He as much as told me that for my own good it would be better for me to acquiesce and concede that that factor is much stronger than our factor. I told him that regardless of whatever he said, the matter would be referred—which we did to the office of the Manhattan district attorney's office. Mr. Constandy was in charge of the inquiry.

I visited with the Central Investigation Bureau, and I spoke to Detectives Jordan, Meyers, and Sergeant Langston. I was in communication with the Brooklyn district attorney's office, and saw District Attorney Bob Lazarus and District Attorney Koota, in charge of the Racket Bureau.

I gave them all these facts. As a matter of fact, the Brooklyn district attorney's office obtained an indictment against an official of local 531.

Mr. ŘENNEDY. Did they explain to you how they were going to get the Longshoremen's Union into this situation ?

Mr. DENVER. I wasn't interested enough to ask. They told me that they could get the charter.

Mr. KENNEY. Was this whole idea, the whole thought behind it, of making an arrangement with the local of their choice, the idea of gaining monopoly control over the New York area?

Mr. DENVER. Definitely. Definitely. And I was given to understand that the cost per machine would be $5 per month for the association, and $5 per month for the union.

Mr. KENNEDY. And that it would bring in a tremendous income?

Mr. DENVER. That would be $5 per month and they figured at least 15,000 machines. That would be $75,000 a month for the union and $75,000 for the association.

Mr. KENNEDY. That would be in the form of these label charges? Mr. DENVER. Yes. They call it labels.

Mr. KENNEDY. This was all explained to you at this meeting, in which you refused to go along with them!

Mr. DENVER. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you understand that there were some underworld figures behind all of this?

Mr. DENVER. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. Then after you refused to make any concessions on this, did local 266 of the Teamsters then come into existence ?

Mr. DENVER. That is correct.
Mr. KENNEDY. Then they started their activities of harassment?
Mr. DENVER. That is right.
Mr. KENNEDY. That has been aimed at you and your organization ?
Mr. DENVER. That is absolutely correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. That has been going on over a period of the past year?

Mr. DENVER. That is right; divide and conquer.
Mr. KENNEDY. Have they made any real progress?

Mr. DENVER. They have. I have been informed that they have at least 2,500 phonographs in their union. I understand that several of our members who are afraid of being intimidated agreed to join local 266 and pay dues thereto.

Mr. KENNEDY. We have some figures here that show only up until the last quarter of 1958, but which show that from 1956 to the last quarter of 1958, the members of your association have lost some 1,631 locations.

Mr. DENVER. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. That is because of these efforts by the underworld to move into these unions and work closely with association members, or independent operators, who do not mind making this kind of a deal ?

Mr. DENVER. That is correct. Mr. KENNEDY. Did you ever hear or have any conversation as to who controlled local 266 of the Teamsters?

Mr. DENVER. Well, I was told that Mr. DeGrandis was the man who was president of the union. I was also told that the Gallo brothers, whom I never met, by the way, were the people behind the union.

Mr. KENNEDY. They are the ones that have been described here as the successors to Murder, Inc.

Mr. DENVER. Well, I heard that description. I don't know them.

Mr. KENNEDY. They were the ones that were originally behind local 19 and now they switched over to local 266 ?

Mr. DENVER. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. So it all fits into what you were told was going to happen; is that right?

Mr. DENVER. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you understand the association member, or the operator who was behind it, was Gene Jacob? Mr. DENVER. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. He was originally behind local 19 and then switched over to local 266 ?

Mr. DENVER. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. They have been told, have they not, by the operators who have this arrangement with local 266, your people have been told that they better join up with 266 or they are going to start losing even more locations?

Mr. DENVER. That is definitely true.
Mr. KENNEDY. Have you been threatened at all, yourself!
Mr. DENVER. Yes, I have been threatened.
Mr. KENNEDY. Would you tell us about that?

Mr. DENVER. Well, I received a few anonymous calls that unless 1

Mr. KENNEDY. First when you were opposing local 19?
Mr. DENVER. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. Were you approached then by Mr. John M. Amalitano?

Mr. DENVER. That is correct.
Mr. KENNEDY. What did he say to you?

Mr. DENVER. Well, in substance he told me that I won the first round, but I wouldn't live see any other rounds won by me. Then I received any number of anonymous calls to my office, and somehow or other they were able to call my home. I have an unlisted phone at home. How they got that number, I will never know. But they always made sure to call my home when I wasn't there.

Nr. KENNEDY. Did they talk to your wife?
Mr. DENVER. Yes.
Mr. KENNEDY. What did they say to your wife?

Mr. DENVER. Well, that I was mentioning names, which I didn't, by the way, and that my activity was too great to allow me to live.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your association going to do? Are you going to continue to fight these evils?

Mr. DENVER. Mr. Chairman, let this be known for the record and for the world, and for every citizen of the United States. I have a vote of confidence from the members of our association. We will muster everything at our disposal “o fight and oppose these evils.

We, the average operator in New York City, the members of our association, enjoy a clean industry. We want it kept clean, and we will fight to have a clean, honorable industry so that we can make a livelihood.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it local 266 now of the Teamsters that is the one that is giving you the trouble?

Mr. DENVER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. It is the one that is using these threats and intimidations to try to force the members of your association to join that union?

Mr. DENVER. That is right; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the one that has Mr. DeGrandis? Is he the president of it?

Mr. DENVER. He is the president; yes.
The CHAIRMAN. What is the name of the other two?

Mr. KENNEDY. He is the president, and the Jacob brothers are behind him, and the Gallo brothers.

The CHAIRMAN. The Jacob brothers and Gallo brothers, they are all behind local 266 ?

Mr. DENVER. That is correct. Their great weapon is to stop the delivery of beer.

The CHAIRMAN. And they get the cooperation of the Teamsters Union ?

Mr. DENVER. They get beautiful cooperation, perfect cooperation.

The CHAIRMAN. So you and your association are going to fight this. You belong already to a union?

Mr. DENVER. Local 1690.
The CHAIRMAN. And you have a contract with them?

Mr. DENVER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And this is a case of the Teamsters Union, backed by these gangsters and crooks, coming in, muscling in, undertaking by force or intimidation, economic force and intimidation, to drive you folks out of local 1690 of the Retail Clerks into the Teamsters Union, where it is gangster-controlled !

Mr. DENVER. That is correct, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Who of the Teamster high officials are back of this in supporting it! Who does this local 266_who is the immediate superior or authority over it?

Mr. DENVER. Well, Mr. O'Rourke of the council granted the charter.

The CHAIRMAN. He granted the charter?
Mr. DENVER. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. And he is what in the international? Is he one of the chief vice presidents!

Mr. DENVER. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. He is head of Joint Council 16, Mr. Chairman, which is the joint council that controls New York City, 140,000 Teamsters there. He was the one who was backed by Johnny Bioguardi and Tony Ducks Corallo.

We looked into his election in 1956, the joint council election. He was backed by these figures. He appeared before the committee and took the fifth amendment and shortly afterward was elected vice president of the Teamsters on Mr. Hoffa's slate.

The CHAIRMAN. Did Hoffa send money up there to help him in his election?

Mr. KENNEDY. No; it was through Hoffa's efforts that these paper locals

The CHAIRMAN. That is where the paper locals were granted to Dioguardi and that crowd in order to help elect John O'Rourke?

Mr. KENNEDY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. But it was in the Philadelphia area where he sent money over to help them!

Mr. KENNEDY. That is correct.
The CHAIRMAN. I understand.

Mr. DENVER. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, may I at this time say that when we started to feel a squeeze on behalf of this local, 266, our attorney, Mr. Mezansky, immediately communicated by writing to the monitors of the Teamsters.

The CHAIRMAN. You have reported this to the monitors ? Mr. DENVER. Yes; they have a definite report. The CHAIRMAN. Have they taken any action yet! Mr. DENVER. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. 'Well, I think there was a question about the extent of their authority and jurisdiction up until some 4 or 5 days ago. I think possibly that now is being resolved or has been resolved, of course, subject to appeal and review.

But with the authority that apparently they have now, the monitors might be able to give your association some assistance.

Mr. DENVER. Well, they haven't up until now, Mr. Chairman. I am sure that after waiting so long we can wait another hour.

The CHAIRMAN. I am not trying to put them on the spot in any way. I just don't know. But I can understand that possibly up until now they were hesitant or reluctant to act because there was a question of their authority and jurisdiction which had not been fully settled, fully determined. There was a question about it.

But now Î think maybe they would be able to take some affirmative action to protect this local 1690 from being raided in the fashion that it is being by local 266.

Mr. DENVER. Well, the monitors have our complaint on file.
The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. KENNEDY. In the same vein, the connections of some of these people with the underworld, were you ever approached in the threats that were made to you, by any underworld figure as to what they could do for you with local 266!

Mr. DENVER. Well, there was a party that came to see me.
Mr. KENNEDY. Who was the party that came to see you?
Mr. DENVER. A man by the name of Ernie Rupolo.
Mr. KENNEDY. Ernie "The Hawk” Rupolo!

Mr. DENVER. I didn't know “The Hawk.” I only knew him at that time as Ernie Rupolo. I knew that he had been in the business, but I never met him before that time.

Mr. KENNEDY. He had been jumping certain locations?

Mr. DENVER. Yes, he was jumping locations. That is why I knew his name. He told me that he would be able to straighten out this question of raiding on behalf of the Jacob brothers. I said to him if he could do that, that would be all right with me.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did he ever straighten it out?

Mr. DENVER. No, it was never straightened out. I saw him three or four times after that and that was the end of it.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you make some payments to him for his efforts!
Mr. DENVER. No, not in that vein.
Mr. KENNEDY. Did you make some payments to him?

Mr. DENVER. Well, he had called my office and given us a prospect of a location, and we gave him a finder's fee, and I think it was $75.

Mr. KENNEDY. How many times did he call your office?

Mr. DENVER. He called my office about four or five times, half a dozen times. Mr. KENNEDY. How much money did you pay him altogether?

Mr. DENVER. I don't remember. It must have been around $100 or $150.

Mr. KENNEDY. You paid him for a couple of different locations?

Mr. DENVER. Just one location and we had prospects of another location which didn't materialize. These were virgin locations.

Mr. KENNEDY. You paid him on several occasions?
Mr. DENVER. Yes, I think it was two checks, twice.

Mr. KENNEDY. I want to go back in time a little bit to the activities of the Emby Co., which was a company during the 1940's, a company that was operated by Meyer Lansky. Are you familiar with that operation!

Mr. DENVER. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Were you ever approached by representatives of that company, by Mever Lansky Co., toward making some kind of a deal?

Mr. DENVER. Yes.

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