Mr. DENVER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And this is a case of the Teamsters Union, backed by these gangsters and crooks, coming in, muscling in, undertaking by force or intimidation, economic force and intimidation, to drive you folks out of local 1690 of the Retail Clerks into the Teamsters Union, where it is gangster-controlled?

Mr. DENVER. That is correct, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Who of the Teamster high officials are back of this in supporting it? Who does this local 266-who is the immediate superior or authority over it?

Mr. DENVER. Well, Mr. O'Rourke of the council granted the charter.

The CHAIRMAN. He granted the charter?

Mr. DENVER. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. And he is what in the international? Is he one of the chief vice presidents?

Mr. DENVER. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. He is head of Joint Council 16, Mr. Chairman, which is the joint council that controls New York City, 140,000 Teamsters there. He was the one who was backed by Johnny Dioguardi and Tony Ducks Corallo.

We looked into his election in 1956, the joint council election. He was backed by these figures. He appeared before the committee and took the fifth amendment and shortly afterward was elected vice president of the Teamsters on Mr. Hoffa's slate.

The CHAIRMAN. Did Hoffa send money up there to help him in his election?

Mr. KENNEDY. No; it was through Hoffa's efforts that these paper locals

The CHAIRMAN. That is where the paper locals were granted to Dioguardi and that crowd in order to help elect John O'Rourke? Mr. KENNEDY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. But it was in the Philadelphia area where he sent money over to help them?

Mr. KENNEDY. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand.

Mr. DENVER. As a matter of fact, Mr. Chairman, may I at this time say that when we started to feel a squeeze on behalf of this local, 266, our attorney, Mr. Mezansky, immediately communicated by writing

to the monitors of the Teamsters.

The CHAIRMAN. You have reported this to the monitors?

Mr. DENVER. Yes; they have a definite report.

The CHAIRMAN. Have they taken any action yet?

Mr. DENVER. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I think there was a question about the extent of their authority and jurisdiction up until some 4 or 5 days ago. I think possibly that now is being resolved or has been resolved, of course, subject to appeal and review.

But with the authority that apparently they have now, the monitors might be able to give your association some assistance.

Mr. DENVER. Well, they haven't up until now, Mr. Chairman. I am sure that after waiting so long we can wait another hour.

The CHAIRMAN. I am not trying to put them on the spot in any way. I just don't know. But I can understand that possibly up until now they were hesitant or reluctant to act because there was a question of their authority and jurisdiction which had not been fully settled, fully determined. There was a question about it.

But now I think maybe they would be able to take some affirmative action to protect this local 1690 from being raided in the fashion that it is being by local 266.

Mr. DENVER. Well, the monitors have our complaint on file.
The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. KENNEDY. In the same vein, the connections of some of these people with the underworld, were you ever approached in the threats that were made to you, by any underworld figure as to what they could do for you with local 266?

Mr. DENVER. Well, there was a party that came to see me.
Mr. KENNEDY. Who was the party that came to see you?
Mr. DENVER. A man by the name of Ernie Rupolo.

Mr. KENNEDY. Ernie "The Hawk" Rupolo?

Mr. DENVER. I didn't know "The Hawk." I only knew him at that time as Ernie Rupolo. I knew that he had been in the business, but I never met him before that time.

Mr. KENNEDY. He had been jumping certain locations?

Mr. DENVER. Yes, he was jumping locations. That is why I knew his name. He told me that he would be able to straighten out this question of raiding on behalf of the Jacob brothers. I said to him if he could do that, that would be all right with me.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did he ever straighten it out?

Mr. DENVER. No, it was never straightened out. I saw him three or four times after that and that was the end of it.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you make some payments to him for his efforts? Mr. DENVER. No, not in that vein.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you make some payments to him?

Mr. DENVER. Well, he had called my office and given us a prospect of a location, and we gave him a finder's fee, and I think it was $75. Mr. KENNEDY. How many times did he call your office?

Mr. DENVER. He called my office about four or five times, half a dozen times.

Mr. KENNEDY. How much money did you pay him altogether? Mr. DENVER. I don't remember. It must have been around $100 or $150.

Mr. KENNEDY. You paid him for a couple of different locations? Mr. DENVER. Just one location and we had prospects of another location which didn't materialize. These were virgin locations. Mr. KENNEDY. You paid him on several occasions?

Mr. DENVER. Yes, I think it was two checks, twice.

Mr. KENNEDY. I want to go back in time a little bit to the activities of the Emby Co., which was a company during the 1940's, a company that was operated by Meyer Lansky. Are you familiar with that operation?

Mr. DENVER. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Were you ever approached by representatives of that company, by Mever Lansky Co., toward making some kind of a deal? Mr. DENVER. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. Would you relate to the committee what happened, or relate what happened there?

Mr. DENVER. The Emby Distributing were the distributors for the Wurlitzer factory.

An officer of the company was a man by the name of Ed Smith.
Mr. KENNEDY. He was a partner of Mr. Lansky?

Mr. DENVER. I believe he was a partner. He was in charge and he had authority there. There was a period there right after the World War II when new machines were coming into the market and Mr. Smith told me that they were instituting a franchise plan. Mr. Levine, our former attorney who is now deceased, and myself, asked Mr. Smith the meaning of this franchise plan. Mr. Smith told us that any purchaser of the Wurlitzer machine would be restrained from buying any other type of machine.

Mr. Levine and I demanded a copy of that agreement, and we wanted to see the type of agreement that they woud have the operator sign. They told us that the agreement was not ready at the moment, but that they would give us a copy of the agreement.

Now, after inquiring about six or seven times, Mr. Smith definitely told us that they decided not to have a written agreement, but it was by way of mouth to ear, a verbal agreement. They wanted the operators just to buy one type of machine and the operators definitely refused to go along with that.

Mr. Smith then called upon Mr. Levine and myself and asked us to enter into a deal guaranteeing him the sale of 1,500 machines per

year.

We absolutely refused to go ahead with any such idea, or any such deal.

Mr. KENNEDY. What did he say would happen if you didn't go through with the deal?

Mr. DENVER. He told us that the locations would be taken away from us. As a matter of fact, within a very short time we lost close to 200 or 250 locations. But we stood our ground, and after 3 months they acknowledged the fact that we wouldn't go along with the plan: Mr. KENNEDY. Did you understand that they were figuring that because of Meyer Lansky's name, that you would capitulate and give in on it?

Mr. DENVER. Possibly.

Mr. KENNEDY. And they did try to carry out their threat and were successful for about 200 or 250 locations?

Mr. DENVER. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. But then it ended; is that right?

Mr. DENVER. Yes, I saw very little of Meyer Lansky.
Mr. KENNEDY. You didn't make a deal with them?

Mr. DENVER. Oh, no; absolutely not.

Mr. KENNEDY. What about Carmine Lombardozzi? Did you ever have any connections with him?

Mr. DENVER. I never had any connections, outside of the fact that Mr. Lombardozzi went into the phonograph business and once he was in the business he started to take locations away from our members, locations that were under contract. As a matter of fact, he took two locations away from me.

As managing director of the association it was my job to see whether we could get him in as a member of the association.

Now, when I had seen him originally, I didn't know what his background was, and I didn't know who the man was outside of the fact that he was in the phonograph business.

After several conferences, he signed up as a member of our association.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did he want to sell his route to you at one time? Mr. DENVER. At one time he wanted to sell the route to me, but I wouldn't have any part of it.

Mr. KENNEDY. Ültimately he sold it to someone else?
Mr. DENVER. He sold it to Majestic.

Mr. KENNEDY. That was the testimony that we had yesterday. Did he ever come to speak to you about getting his brother a position? Mr. DENVER. Yes, he told me that he would like to have his brother be associated with the union, and I told him I had no dealings with the union, and if he wanted to do that he could go right up to the union and talk for himself.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did he tell you that he wanted to have his brother made an official of local 1690?

Mr. DENVER. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. And you told him he would have to go to see the union?

Mr. DENVER. I referred him to the union.

Mr. KENNEDY. To make those arrangements himself?

Mr. DENVER. Yes, that is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. There is just one other matter that I want to talk to you about briefly, and that is the beating of Mr. Caggiano.

We have had testimony about his visit to Mr. Calland's office, the first conversation he had with Mr. Calland, and the open windows, and how they then went down and went ultimately to your office. Could you relate what happened after they arrived at your office! Mr. DENVER. Well, do you want me to tell the committee the inception of this whole thing?

Mr. KENNEDY. Unless it gives something different than the testimony we have already had.

Mr. DENVER. It is not different outside of the fact that Mr. Lichtman and Mr. Cagi started sending letters to the location owners. These letters were referred to the operators who in turn contacted me. I referred the matter to Mr. Frank Calland who was the business agent for the local with whom we had a collective bargaining agreement. He told me that he would take care of the matter. This went on for several weeks, and I was rather peeved, and I told Mr. Calland that it wasn't fair for our members to be subjected to such action on the part of any other union.

I was sitting in the office of the association one day, around 12 or 1 o'clock, and I received a call from Mr. Calland to the effect that Mr. Cagi and Mr. Lichtman were in his office and arranged to meet with me in my office in Brooklyn that very night at 5 o'clock.

I agreed.

As soon as I hung up the receiver I realized that they were just across the street, and I called up Frank Calland, and I said, "Why

not come over to the association office and we can discuss any matter you want here?"

Mr. Calland told me that they had already left and that the appointment was for 5 o'clock.

At 5 o'clock I went back to my office in Brooklyn and I found Mr. Lichtman and Mr. Cagi waiting there for me.

After I was in my office possibly 5 minutes, Mr. Frank Calland came in. And he came into my private office and he closed the door, and he stood against the door and he said, "Jimmy," referring to Jimmy Cagi, "what do you want and what are you looking for?" Mr. Caggiano said, "Well, you are walking around with a loaf of bread under each arm and I want one loaf."

Then Mr. Calland said, "Come here, I want to talk to you." And he took him in the back of the office, which is a garage where we store our machines there and our cars. Suddenly I heard a crash and I said, "Oh, my God! One of the machines must have fallen down."

I ran in the back and I saw Mr. Cagi who was on the floor and there was another character there and this unknown character was giving Mr. Cagi quite a beating. I pleaded with this unknown character to remove himself from the premises.

Mr. KENNEDY. What did the beating consist of?

Mr. DENVER. Well, Mr. Cagi was on the floor, and all I saw was enough kicking in the stomach and the head.

Mr. KENNEDY. What was he saying to Caggiano as he was kicking him?

Mr. DENVER. He said, "You didn't listen and you wouldn't listen and you wouldn't take orders."

Mr. KENNEDY. He would kick him in the face?

Mr. DENVER. Oh, yes, he kicked him in the face.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did he grind his face into the floor?

Mr. DENVER. Well, he ground his face with the heel of his shoe. Mr. KENNEDY. What did you do?

Mr. DENVER. Well, I got between them and I pleaded with him to get out of the place, because I saw Frank Calland standing there and he was beginning to foam at the mouth, and I said, "Do me a favor. I don't know who you are, but get out of here and get out fast and take Frank Calland out of here too."

So this character, and myself, we took Mr. Calland under the armpits and we carried him to the door, and then I found another stranger there, and I never saw him before, and the two of them took Frank Calland out of the office.

Mr. KENNEDY. That was the end of it?

Mr. DENVER. That was the end of that, except for the fact that Mr. Cagi came into my private office and then he left.

Mr. KENNEDY. There was another man with the one that was kicking and beating Mr. Caggiano?

Mr. DENVER. There were two people that showed up.

Mr. KENNEDY. What did he say?

Mr. DENVER. The other fellow?

Mr. KENNEDY. Yes.

Mr. DENVER. He didn't say anything.

Mr. KENNEDY. What did he tell the office workers?