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Mr. KENNEDY. Would you relate to the committee what happened, or relate what happened there?

Mr. DENVER. The Emby Distributing were the distributors for the Wurlitzer factory.

An officer of the company was a man by the name of Ed Smith.
Mr. KENNEDY. He was a partner of Mr. Lansky?

Mr. DENVER. I believe he was a partner. He was in charge and he had authority there. There was a period there right after the World War II when new machines were coming into the market and Mr. Smith told me that they were instituting a franchise plan. Mr. Levine, our former attorney who is now deceased, and myself, asked Mr. Smith the meaning of this franchise plan. Mr. Smith told us that any purchaser of the Wurlitzer machine would be restrained from buying any other type of machine.

Mr. Levine and I demanded a copy of that agreement, and we wanted to see the type of agreement that they woud have the operator sign. They told us that the agreement was not ready at the moment, but that they would give us a copy of the agreement.

Now, after inquiring about six or seven times, Mr. Smith definitely told us that they decided not to have a written agreement, but it was by way of mouth to ear, a verbal agreement. They wanted the operators just to buy one type of machine and the operators definitely refused to go along with that.

Mr. Smith then called upon Mr. Levine and myself and asked us to enter into a deal guaranteeing him the sale of 1,500 machines per year.

We absolutely refused to go ahead with any such idea, or any such deal.

Mr. KENNEDY. What did he say would happen if you didn't go through with the deal ?

Mr. DENVER. He told us that the locations would be taken away from us. As a matter of fact, within a very short time we lost close to 200 or 250 locations. But we stood our ground, and after 3 months they acknowledged the fact that we wouldn't go along with the plani

Nr. KENNEDY. Did you understand that they were figuring that because of Meyer Lansky's name, that you would capitulate and give in on it?

Mr. DENVER. Possibly.

Mr. KENNEDY. And they did try to carry out their threat and were successful for about 200 or 250 locations?

Mr. DENVER. Yes, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. But then it ended; is that right?
Mr. DENVER. Yes, I saw very little of Meyer Lansky.
Mr. KENNEDY. You didn't make a deal with them?
Mr. DENVER. Oh, no; absolutely not.

Mr. KENNEDY. What about Carmine Lombardozzi? Did you ever have any connections with him?

Mr. DENVER. I never had any connections, outside of the fact that Mr. Lombardozzi went into the phonograph business and once he was in the business he started to take locations away from our members, locations that were under contract. As a matter of fact, he took two locations away from me.

As managing director of the association it was my job to see whether we could get him in as a member of the association.

Now, when I had seen him originally, I didn't know what his background was, and I didn't know who the man was outside of the fact that he was in the phonograph business.

After several conferences, he signed up as a member of our association.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did he want to sell his route to you at one time!

Mr. DENVER. At one time he wanted to sell the route to me, but I wouldn't have any part of it.

Mr. KENNEDY. Últimately he sold it to someone else?
Mr. DENVER. He sold it to Majestic.

Mr. KENNEDY. That was the testimony that we had yesterday. Did he ever come to speak to you about getting his brother a position !

Mr. DENVER. Yes, he told me that he would like to have his brother be associated with the union, and I told him I had no dealings with the union, and if he wanted to do that he could go right up to the union and talk for himself.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did he tell you that he wanted to have his brother made an official of local 1690?

Mr. DENVER. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. And you told him he would have to go to see the union?

Mr. DENVER. I referred him to the union.
Mr. KENNEDY. To make those arrangements himself!
Mr. DENVER. Yes, that is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. There is just one other matter that I want to talk to you about briefly, and that is the beating of Mr. Caggiano.

We have had testimony about his visit to Mr. Calland's office, the first conversation he had with Mr. Calland, and the open windows, and how they then went down and went ultimately to your office.

Could you relate what happened after they arrived at your office !

Mr. DENVER. Well, do you want me to teil the committee the inception of this whole thing?

Mr. KENNEDY. Unless it gives something different than the testimony we have already had.

Mr. DENVER. It is not different outside of the fact that Mr. Lichtman and Mr. Cagi started sending letters to the location owners. These letters were referred to the operators who in turn contacted me. I referred the matter to Mr. Frank Calland who was the business agent for the local with whom we had a collective bargaining agreement. He told me that he would take care of the matter.

This went on for several weeks, and I was rather peeved, and I told Mr. Calland that it wasn't fair for our members to be subjected to such action on the part of any other union.

I was sitting in the office of the association one day, around 12 or 1 o'clock, and I received a call from Mr. Calland to the effect that Mr. Cagi and Mr. Lichtman were in his office and arranged to meet with me in my office in Brooklyn that very night at 5 o'clock.

I agreed.

As soon as I hung up the receiver I realized that they were just across the street, and I called up Frank Calland, and I said, "Why not come over to the association office and we can discuss any matter you want here?"

Mr. Calland told me that they had already left and that the appointment was for 5 o'clock.

At 5 o'clock I went back to my office in Brooklyn and I found Mr. Licht man and Mr. Cagi waiting there for me.

After I was in my office possibly 5 minutes, Mr. Frank Calland came in. And he came into my private office and he closed the door, and he stood against the door and he said, “Jimmy,” referring to Jimmy Cagi, “what do you want and what are you looking for?'

Mr. Caggiano said, “Well, you are walking around with a loaf of bread under each arm and I want one loaf.”

Then Mr. Calland said, “Come here, I want to talk to you.” And he took him in the back of the office, which is a garage where we store our machines there and our cars. Suddenly I heard a crash and I said, "Oh, my God! One of the machines must have fallen down."

I ran in the back and I saw Mr. Cagi who was on the floor and there was another character there and this unknown character was giving Mr. Cagi quite a beating. I pleaded with this unknown character to remove himself from the premises.

Mr. KENNEDY. What did the beating consist of?

Mr. DENVER. Well, Mr. Cagi was on the floor, and all I saw was enongh kicking in the stomach and the head.

Mr. KENNEDY. What was he saying to Caggiano as he was kicking him?

Mr. DENVER. He said, “You didn't listen and you wouldn't listen and you wouldn't take orders.”

Mr. KENNEDY. He would kick him in the face?
Mr. DENVER. Oh, yes, he kicked him in the face.
Mr. KENNEDY. Did he grind his face into the floor?
Mr. DENVER. Well, he ground his face with the heel of his shoe.
Mr. KENNEDY. What did

Mr. DENVER. Well, I got between them and I pleaded with him to get out of the place, because I saw Frank Calland standing there and he was beginning to foam at the mouth, and I said, "Do me a favor. I don't know who you are, but get out of here and get out fast and take Frank Calland out of here too."

So this character, and myself, we took Mr. Calland under the arm pits and we carried him to the door, and then I found another stranger there, and I never saw him before, and the two of them took Frank Calland out of the office.

Mr. KENNEDY. That was the end of it?

Mr. DENVER. That was the end of that, except for the fact that Mr. Cagi came into my private office and then he left.

Mr. KENNEDY. There was another man with the one that was kicking and beating Mr. Caggiano?

Mr. DENVER. There were two people that showed up.
Mr. KENNEDY. What did he say?
Mr. DENVER. The other fellow?
Mr. KENNEDY. Yes.
Mr. DENVER. He didn't say anything.
Mr. KENNEDY. What did he tell the office workers?

you do?

Mr. DENVER. He told my manager, or let me put it this way, my manager saw there was something wrong, and so he tried to walk toward the door to get out, and so this particular individual said, "Now look, be a nice boy, stay there, and nothing will be said and nothing will be done."

My man just stood there.

Mr. KENNEDY. So there were two people that were there evidently for the beating?

Mr. DENVER. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. One of them kept your office manager in line and the other one went in and did the beating.

Mr. DENVER. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. You didn't know anything about that, that this was going to transpire?

Mr. DENVER. Of course not.
Mr. KENNEDY. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Senator CHURCH. Mr. Denver, if your present struggle with local 266, it doesn't come as any surprise to the members of this committee that underworld figures should have taken over, nor that they are affiliated with the Teamsters International, which seems to have become a kind of national refuge for scoundrels, but I do want to commend you for the determined resistance against this kind of intimidation that you are putting up. I think that that constitutes the surest defense against the spread of racketeering in any community and in any industry that we have.

I want to wish you every success in your efforts.

Yesterday we had the testimony of the counsel for the Retail Clerks, the regionaì counsel, who explained that that union has tried to make sure that local 1690 is a legitimate labor union interested in those legitimate objectives for which labor unions are formed.

I think if we are to have success in this field, it is going to take the joint efforts of those in the industry and those honest people who are involved in the union movement, and without that joint effort certainly the racketeers and the hoodlums are not going to be forced out.

So I want to commend you for coming here today, and for giving us the benefit of this testimony, and I want to wish you every success in your continued efforts in New York City.

Mr. DENVER. Thank you very much.
The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further?
If not, call the next witness.

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Denver has testified as to the activities of these various unions who are competing to try to take over the operations in the coin-machine business. One of the most active was local 531, headed by Mr. Al Cohen, about whom we have had testimony, and about whom we are going to have further testimony. That local 531 was a local in the United Industrial Union, an international union, and so we felt that it would be helpful to the committee to call the international president of that union and have him give us testimony as to what the situation as far as the granting of the charter. I would like to call Mr. Joseph LaRocco.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. LaRocco, come around.

You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. La Rocco. I do.

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH LaROCCO, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

JULIUS HELFAND

The CHAIRMAN. What is your name?
Mr. LaRocco. Joseph La Rocco.

The CHAIRMAN. Where do you live, Mr. LaRocco?
Mr. LaRocco. 2142 76th Street, Brooklyn.
The CHAIRMAN. What is your business or occupation, please?

Mr. LaRocco. I refuse to answer on the ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Counsel, what did you say his business is, or what his position is?

Mr. KENNEDY. International president of the United Industrial Union. It is an international union located at 1 Nevins Street, Brooklyn, N.Y. We understand he is also president of Production, Service & Warehouse Employees Union, Local 710, of the United Industrial Union.

The CHAIRMAN. You have heard the statement of counsel. Do you wish to deny that you hold these positions, or either of them!

Mr. LaRocco. I refuse to answer on the ground that the answer might tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. Don't you think your refusal to answer incriminates the union itself, the international—the United Industrial Union? Don't you think it reflects upon it if you take the position you can't tell about being an officer in it without self-incrimination?

Wouldn't the implication be that there is something rotten in the thing?

Mr. LaRocco. I refuse to answer on the ground that the answer might tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not know what your members think of it, but I trust that a lot of them are decent people. But I would haté to be one of your members and have you as my president when you take a position that you cannot acknowledge that fact without selfincrimination.

All right, Mr. Counsel, proceed.
Wait a minute.
Counsel, will you identify yourself, please?
Mr. HELFAND. Julius Helfand, 1501 Broadway, New York City.
The CHAIRMAN. Proceed.

Mr. KENNEDY. The fact is, Mr. LaRocco, that your international union is virtually a paper international union, is it not?

Mr. LaRocco. I refuse to answer on the ground that the answer might tend to incriminate me.

Mr. KENNEDY. We have had discussions about paper locals, Mr. Chairman, but this is the first time we have had what really amounts to a paper international.

Isn't that correct, Mr. LaRocco? Mr. LaRocco. I refuse to answer on the ground that the answer might tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. Is this union, the United Industrial Union International, is it affiliated with the AFL-CIO?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. LaRocco. I refuse to answer on the ground that the answer might tend to incriminate me.

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