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Mr. KENNEDY. Then one of your customers told you how attractive the union business was; is that right? · Mr. GUERCI. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. And so you sold your restaurant and decided to go into the union business?

Mr. GUERCI. That is correct. Mr. KENNEDY. And you went and you had a conversation with Mr. Paul Lafayette who was regional director of the Retail Clerks

Mr. GUERCI. That is right,

Mr. KENNEDY. And he told you to go to work and he would get you a charter later on?

Mr. GUERCI. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. So you invested your money and you started to organize; is that right?

Mr. GUERCI. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. You started organizing in the coin-machine business, in that field? Mr. GUERCI. Yes, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. Do you know much about this kind of business? Mr. GUERCI. Nothing. Mr. KENNEDY. You had just been in the restaurant business? Mr. GUERCI. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. You got a group of operators together out on Long Island ?

Mr. GUERCI. Nassau and Suffolk.

Mr. KENNEDY. They decided this would help you and put some of their employees in?

Mr. GUERCI. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. And so you were in that kind of an operationfor about 2 years; is that right?

Mr. GUERCI. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. And then Mr. Lafayette finally gave you a charter, did he?

Mr. GUERCI. That is right.
Mr. KENNEDY. From the Retail Clerks!
Mr. GUERCI. Yes, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. And you got a charter?
Mr. GUERCI. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. How many people were you able to sign up during the 2 years you were operating?

Mr. GUERCI. About 50.
Mr. KENNEDY. There were no contracts with anybody!
Mr. GUERCI. No.
Mr. KENNEDY. They paid dues in?
Mr. GUERCI. Yes.
Mr. KENNEDY. You got the dues ?
Mr. GUERCI. That is right.
Mr. KENNEDY. Did you keep any books or records?
Mr. GUERCI. No, not at that time, because I had no accountant.

Mr. KENNEDY. The money just came to you and you would disburse it?

Mr. GUERCI. I would use it all up.
Mr. KENNEDY. Plus you were investing your own money?
Mr. GUERCI. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. You were the union.
Mr. GUERCI. Yes; that is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. How much money of your own did you spend during that period of time?

Mr. GUERCI. About $7,000. Mr. KENNEDY. Going around trying to organize, and you ended up with 50 people.

Mr. GUERCI. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. One of the employers out there, operators, was Mr. Sandy Moore?

Mr. GUERCI. That is correct.
Mr. KENNEDY. Did he make some arrangement with you?
Mr. GUERCI. He made no arrangement with me.
Mr. KENNEDY. Did he give you some of his employees?
Mr. GUERCI. Oh, yes.
Mr. KENNEDY. How many did he give you?

Mr. GUERCI. The first time he gave me a couple, and then when he went ahead, he gave me five or six more.

Mr. KENNEDY. These operators would give you some of their moneys if they liked you?

Mr. GUERCI. Not that they liked me. If they had a mechanic, they signed up with the union. Mr. KENNEDY. For instance, he had 20 employees. Mr. GUERCI. He didn't give me all; he only gave me five or six. Mr. KENNEDY. He would only give you five or six ? Mr. GUERCI. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Then the charter that you received from the Retail Clerks was local 433?

Mr. GUERCI. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. After you got the charter, how many people did you get once you got the charter?

Mr. GUERCI. Well, then I merged with Caggiano of New York. ! Mr. KENNEDY. At whose suggestion did you merge with Caggiano? Mr. GUERCI. We sat down together and merged together.

Mr. KENNEDY. Then did Sandy Moore, who had given you five or six of his employees in 1954, suggest to you that you take in a Mr. Al Cohen?

Mr. GUERCI. That is right.
Mr. KENNEDY. He said Mr. Al Cohen could be of help to you?
Mr. GUERCI. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. And so at the suggestion of Mr. Sandy Moore, one of the biggest operators, you took in Mr. Cohen, and did Mr. Cohen gradually take over the union from you?

Mr. GUERCI. Yes, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. He went into the jukebox organizing?
Mr. GUERCI. No jukeboxes; only the games.

Mr. KENNEDY. What was Mr. Cohen doing, and wasn't he going after jukeboxe locations?

Mr. GUERCI. Not when I was in there.
Mr. KENNEDY. Later on did he go after the jukebox?
Mr. GUERCI. I don't know, and I was out.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did he gain control of the union then, after he came in the local?

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Mr. GUERCI. I left him and Jimmy Caggiano.
Mr. KENNEDY. Why did you get out!
Mr. GUERCI. I don't like the setup.
Mr. KENNEDY. What was wrong with the setup?

Mr. GUERCI. I couldn't make any money, and I have a family to support, and so I stepped out.

Mr. KENNEDY. You couldn't make any money from it?
Mr. GUERCI. No.
Mr. KENNEDY. Were they making any money, Caggiano and
Cohen?

Mr. GUERCI. I don't think so.
Mr. KENNEDY. So you went back to the restaurant business!
Mr. GUERCI. That is correct.
Mr. KENNEDY. That was your experience in the labor business?
Mr. GUERCI. That is correct.
Mr. KENNEDY. Are you planning to go back into the labor business!
Mr. GUERCI. Never.
Mr. KENNEDY. That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions?
Senator CHURCH. I have no questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Call the next witness.
Mr. KENNEDY Mr. Pearl.
The CHAIRMAN. Will you be sworn!

You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PEARL I do.

TESTIMONY OF MORTIMER B. PEARL

The CHAIRMAN. State your name, your place of residence, and your business or occupation.

Mr. PEARL. Mortimer Pearl, Valley Stream, N.Y., insurance.
The CHAIRMAN. That is insurance
Mr. PEARL. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. All right. Proceed.

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Pearl, you also had an experience in the labor field; is that right?

Mr. PEARL. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Now, during 1950 to 1955, you were employed in the auto radiator repair business!

Mr. PEARL. That is correct, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. In 1955 you sold out your interest in that business, where you also worked as a mechanic, did you?

Mr. PEARL. As a salesman.

Mr. KENNEDY. You sold out your interest and started to try to develop some insurance business

Mr. PEARL. That is correct, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. You met a man by the name of Mr. Cohen, Abe Cohen ?

Mr. PEARL. Yes, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. Who was a brother of Al Cohen; is that right?
Mr. PEARL. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Abe Cohen had been in the auto repair business? Mr. PEARL. He was a former competitor.

Mr. KENNEDY. Now, Mr. Al Cohen came to you and suggested that you go to work for him?

Mr. PEARL. He did, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. In the union business?
Mr. PEARL. Yes, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. For local 433; is that right?
Mr. PEARL. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. What did he tell you you would be doing, what were your responsibilities?

Mr. PEARL. At the time just to supervise the automobile radiator repair shops which they were interested in having in the union.

Mr. KENNEDY. Originally he offered you $100 a week, and you told him that that wasn't enough, and ultimately he came back and offered you $100 a week plus $25

expenses?
Mr. PEARL. That is right.
Mr. KENNEDY. And you agreed to take the job?
Mr. PEARL. That is right. In January of 1957.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did he also tell you at the same time that he would like to have you president of another local ?

Mr. PEARL. Yes, he did, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY, You were going to work for 433 and did he say he would like to make you president of 531 ?

Mr. PEARL. That is right.
Mr. KENNEDY. Did you agree to be president?
Mr. PEARL. Not at first, but eventually I did.
Mr. KENNEDY. Eventually you did !
Mr. PEARL. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. You discussed it with your wife, and then she said she thought it would be a good idea?

Mr. PEARL. On the contrary, she didn't like the idea, but she was vetoed by myself and I decided to go ahead.

Mr. KENNEDY. What was 531 ? What were they going to do!
Mr. PEARL. They were interested in the jukebox industry.

Mr. KENNEDY. In the latter part of October, of 1956, and this is again about the same time you were having these negotiations, there was a meeting called at the restaurant called the Living Room Restaurant, on Second Avenue, in New York City?

Mr. PEARL. That is right.

Mr. KENNEDY. That was a meeting for the most part of jukebox operators; is that right?

Mr. PEARL. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. And Mr. Cohen addressed the group, and at that time he told them that if they were dissatisfied with local 1690, he was going to be able to establish a setup that would offer more protection to the operators ?

Mr. PEARL. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. And that if they signed with his union, that he would be able, through his connections, to prevent the delivery of beer and other supplies to the various locations?

Mr. PEARL. That is right, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. The union was going to be established with the help and the assistance of the operators; is that right?

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Mr. PEARL. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. There was no discussion about the employees, how this

was going to help the employees? Mr. PEARL. None that I recall.

Mr. KENNEDY. And it was all as to establishing the union to help the operators and help them keep their locations?

Mr. PEARL. That is correct.

Mr. KENNEDY. At that meeting of the operators, you were nominated as president; is that right?

Mr. PEARL. Yes, sir; I was. Mr. KENNEDY. And you were elected; is that right? Mr. PEARL. Yes. Mr. KENNEDY. So you were elected. Cohen took over the position of business manager of the local and you were the president?

Mr. PEARL. I was the president in name only, and this meeting took place in October of 1956. My duties with this particular local did not commence until the end of February of 1957. I then turned my resignation in on April 1 of that same year.

Mr. KENNEDY. Who was secretary-treasurer?
Mr. PEARL. I don't recall, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. Did you know Giovanelli?

Mr. PEARL. I might have met him at that meeting, but I did not know him prior or did not see him afterwards.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you recognize a photograph of him? Mr. PEARL. I may, sir. The CHAIRMAN. I hand you a photograph that bears New York City police No. 316100, then another number of 12956.

I will ask you to examine it and state if you can identify the person in the photograph.

(The photograph was handed to the witness.) Mr. KENNEDY. That is Giovanelli.

Mr. PEARL. I do believe that he was present at the meeting that was held at the Living Room Club.

The CHAIRMAN. You think he was present at that meeting. Do you think you recognize him as one of those who were present?

Mr. PEARL. Pardon me, sir. I didn't hear you.

The CHAIRMAN. I say, do you think you recognize the picture as a photograph of someone who was present at that organizational meeting?

Mr. PEARL. Yes, I do believe he was present.
The CHAIRMAN. That may be made exhibit No. 20.

(Photograph referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 20” for reference and may be found in the files of the Select Committee.)

The CHAIRMAN. Is this the man who became secretary-treasurer of your union?

Mr. PEARL. I don't recall, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. You honestly don't know about that?
Mr. PEARL. No, I don't.
The CHAIRMAN. But you think he was present?
Mr. PEARL. I do believe he was present.

Mr. KENNEDY. October 26, 1957, the minutes of that meeting show, among other things, that Fred Giovanelli was nominated and sec ondeď for financial secretary-treasurer and recorded. This man was made financial secretary of this union, or do you know?

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