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INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE

LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD

TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 17, 1959

UNITED STATES SENATE,
SELECT COMMITTEE ON IMPROPER ACTIVITIES
IN THE LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD,

Washington, D.C. The select committee met at 10:30 a.m., pursuant to Senate Resolution 44, agreed to February 2, 1959, in the caucus room, Senate Office Building, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the select committee), presiding.

Present: Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas; Senator Sam J. Ervin, Jr., Democrat, North Carolina; Senator Barry Goldwater, Republican, Arizona; Senator Homer E. Capehart, Republican, Indiana.

Also present: Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel; John P. Constandy, 'assistant counsel; Arthur G. Kaplan, assistant counsel; Walter R. May, investigator; Sherman S. Willse, investigator; Walter De Vaughn, investigator; James P. Kelly, investigator; Ruth Y. Watt, chief clerk.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

(Members of the select committee present at time of reconvening: Senators McClellan and Capehart.)

The CHAIRMAN. Call the next witness.

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Chairman, the next witness is Mr. Sidney Saul, from Brooklyn, N.Y.

The CHAIRMAN. Come forward, please. Be sworn.

You do solemnly swear the evidence you shall give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. SAUL. I do.

TESTIMONY OF SIDNEY SAUL The CHAIRMAN. State your name, your place of residence, and your business or occupation.

Mr. Saul. Sidney Saul, Brooklyn, N.Y. I am a salesman.
The CHAIRMAN. You waive counsel ?
Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Proceed, Mr. Kennedy.

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Chairman, I might say before I begin the questioning of this witness that in this phase of our investigation we have had tremendous help and assistance from the district attorney in Brooklyn, and without that help and assistance we would not have this witness today, nor be able to develop some further facts in connection with him.

During the whole of this investigation into the coin-machine business, they have rendered great assistance to the committee as, of course, the district attorney in Manhattan, Mr. Hogan, as well as the commissioner of police, Mr. Kennedy.

Mr. Saul, you were a partner in a television and appliance business?
Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. Some time ago; is that right?
Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. And the business was not successful and you were looking around for another business; is that right?

Mr. Saul. Yes; I was.
Mr. KENNEDY. This would be in 1954 or so?
Mr. SAUL. About that time.

Mr. KENNEDY. You had a relative, Mr. Sanford Warner, who was head of AAMONY?

Mr. Saul. Well, he was a relative through marriage.

Mr. KENNEDY. He was head of the amusement game jukebox association—just the game association ?

Mr. Saul. Not at that time.
Mr. KENNEDY. He was a game and jukebox operator at that time?
Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. And subsequently became head of the game association ?

Mr. Saul. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did he suggest that you go into this business, the game and jukebox business?

Mr. Saul. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. And eventually, in March of 1956, you did; is that right?

Mr. Saul. Yes, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. And you obtained a route of some 22 machines ?
Mr. Saul. Yes, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. Was that game machines or jukebox machines ?
Mr. Saul. Both.
Mr. KENNEDY. Did you buy those ?
The CHAIRMAN. Did you buy that route?
Mr. SAUL. Yes; I did.
Mr. KENNEDY. Were you a member of any union then ?

Mr. Saul. I then became a member, automatically became a member, of the union that was associated with the machine operators association.

Mr. KENNEDY. That was local 1690 of the Retail Clerks; is that right? Mr. Saul, I don't remember the number.

Mr. KENNEDY. When you came into the association, you automatically became a member of this union?

Mr. Saul. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. The record has shown, Mr. Chairman, that is was local 1690.

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game route?

But you didn't know anything about its operation?
Mr. Saul. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you know you were becoming a member of a union when you bought this

Mr. Saul. I did, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You knew when you bought it that you automatically became a member of the local union ?

Mr. Saul. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. You don't remember its number?
Mr. SAUL. I don't believe it was 1690.
Mr. KENNEDY. It might have been 433, then!
Mr. SAUL. Yes.
Mr. KENNEDY. 1690 was the jukeboxes and 433 was the game.
Mr. Saul. Yes, that is right; 433.

The CHAIRMAN. You know you became a member of some union, but you don't know which it was?

Mr. SAUL. It was 433.
Mr. KENNEDY. That was the game union?
Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. When you joined the jukebox association, didn't you also belong to the jukebox local ?

Mr. SAUL. I joined myself.
Mr. KENNEDY. Did you join it yourself?
Mr. SAUL. Yes.
Mr. KENNEDY. What local was that?
Mr. Saul. 1690.
Mr. KENNEDY. Subsequently you joined that?
Mr. SAUL. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Did that make you a member of both locals?
Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, to operate a game machine you had to belong to 433 ?

Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And to operate jukeboxes you had to belong to 1690?

Mr. Saul. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. And 1690 was the Clerks' union?
Mr. Saul. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. What was 433?
Mr. SAUL. That was a Retail Clerks Union, too, I believe.
The CHAIRMAN. Both of them were Retail Clerks?
Mr. SAUL. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. I don't know why you would have to belong to two locals.

Mr. SAUL. Well, one worked with the game machines and the other one consisted mainly of jukeboxes.

The CHAIRMAN. So you had to belong to two different locals; pay two different sets of dues ?

Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir.

Senator CAPEHART. Did you say you had to belong? What do you mean by that?

Mr. SAUL. No; I don't believe I had to belong.
Senator CAPEHART. Did you join of your own volition ?

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Mr. Saul. Yes, I did.
Senator CAPEHART. No one forced you to join?
Mr. Saul. No.
Senator CAPEHART. They did not?
Mr. Saul. No, sir.
Senator CAPEHART. Were you the owner of the business?
Mr. SAUL. Yes, I was.

I Senator CAPEHART. What do you mean, then you did join? What do you mean, as owner of the business? Did you join the union as an owner of the business or do you mean your employees joined the union ?

Mr. Saul. As owner and operator. I operated my own business.
Senator CAPEHART. You did all the work?
Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir.

Senator CAPEHART. Therefore, you were the owner and the workman?

Mr. Saul. Yes, sir.

Senator CAPEHART. And as the owner and workman, you became a member of this union?

Mr. Saul. Yes, sir.

Senator CAPEHART. But they did not force you to become a member?

Mr. Saul. Well, if I remember correctly-it is a little hazy in my mind-I think 433 automatically sent me a bill, a statement, for union dues. The other union I joined on my own free will.

Senator CAPEHART. Could you have operated these machines if you hadn't joined the union?

Mr. SAUL. I don't believe I could have.

Mr. KENNEDY. In May of 1957 you received a service call from one of your locations?

Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. KENNEDY. A restaurant called the Wagon Wheel?
Mr. Saul. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. At 6610 14th Avenue, Brooklyn, N.Y.; is that right? Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. You referred the call to your freelance serviceman at that time?

Mr. Saul. I did.

Mr. KENNEDY. Later that day you called at the Wagon Wheel; is that right? You called there, yourself? Mr. Saul. I called on the phone.

Mr. KENNEDY. You called on the phone and you spoke to the serviceman ?

Mr. Saul. The serviceman was there at the time. Mr. KENNEDY. That is the one you had sent over? Mr. Saul. Yes. Mr. KENNEDY. Would you relate to the committee what happened after that?

Mr. Saul. Well, the serviceman said it wasn't an actual service call, that somebody had deliberately broken the glass of the jukebox, thinking that I would be there to service the machine. They wanted to see me. So he said the party that did it or said he had done it was in the store at the time.

He put him on the telephone to speak to me.

He said he wanted to see me. I asked who I was talking to, and he wouldn't give me his name. So I said, "Well, I don't know who you are. I certainly am not going to come down and see you."

At that time he gave the excuse that he was the brother of the owner of the luncheonette, and that if I didn't come down, he would smash the machine and see that it was thrown out into the street. So I made an appointment to see him that evening. I came at the appointed time and when I got to the location there was somebody waiting in a car in front of the location for me, and beckoned to me to come to the car. I went to the car and he asked me to sit down. He asked me if I was Sid, and whether I owned the machine in that location. I said I did.

The CHAIRMAN. Is this the same place where the machine was broken that morning ?

Mr. Saul. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And the same place where you had sent your serviceman?

Mr. Saul. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The same location from which you got the call from the man at the time you made the appointment?

Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. SAUL. He said he wanted to take me someplace and talk to somebody. I didn't want to leave my car at that location at that time and come back there, so I suggested that I follow him in my car. He said, “No, if you don't want to leave your car here, I will go in your car and tell you where to go.

So he got into my car and started directing me where we were headed for. During the trip he asked me how I got the location. At that time, I believe the location-I may have been operating a machine at that location about 21/2 years.

The CHAIRMAN. You had had that location for 21/2 years at the time this incident occurred?

Mr. SAUL. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And this man was asking you how did you get the location?

Mr. SAUL. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. Saul. I told him how I came to that location. He went on to
say that the location belonged to him.
The CHAIRMAN. It belonged to him?
Mr. Saul. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, you had had it 21/2 years and he had made no claim to it prior to that?

Mr. Saul. That is right. Then his conversation went off the regular path, and he kept threatening me all the way down to where we were going

The CHAIRMAN. Threatening you how?

Mr. Saul. That he woud kill me. And they would find my body lying off the Belt Parkway.

The CHAIRMAN. What did he want? What was he wanting?

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