Mr. SAUL. He didn't make sense in his conversation as to what he actually wanted. I was trying to read between the lines and pacify him.

Mr. KENNEDY. What is the Belt Parkway?

Mr. SAUL. Well, that is a parkway used for the purpose of automobile transportation along the shore end of Brooklyn, and very seldom used for pedestrian walk at all.

Mr. KENNEDY. He told you at that time they would find your body there?

Mr. SAUL. Yes, he did.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did he relate this a number of different times?

Mr. SAUL. Well, he repeated that about five or six times.

Mr. KENNEDY. That he was going to kill you?

Mr. SAUL. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. Do you know who he is?

Mr. SAUL. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. What is his name?

Mr. SAUL. I didn't know his name at the time, but I know now that his name is Ernest Filocomo.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you recognize a picture of him?

I hand you a picture and ask you to state if you identify the person in the picture.

(The photograph was handed to the witness.)

Mr. SAUL. Yes; that is the man.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the fellow you have been talking about?
Mr. SAUL. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. That you met there and had the appointment with and who drove you around and threatened to kill you?

Mr. SAUL. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. That picture may be made exhibit No. 29.

(Photograph referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 29" for reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.)

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Filocomo is known as Ernest Kippy.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know him by that name, by the name of Kippy!

Mr. SAUL. Well, when I asked his name he said his name was Kip. Mr. KENNEDY. He has seven arrests and five convictions. He has been convicted for unlawful entry, convicted for burglary.

The CHAIRMAN. Do we have a police record?

Mr. KENNEDY. Yes. And disorderly conduct.

The CHAIRMAN. Who obtained it? Let it be sworn to and placed in the record.

Have you been previously sworn in this proceeding?
Mr. CORRIGAN. Yes, sir.

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH CORRIGAN-Resumed

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have the police record of this man?

Mr. CORRIGAN. Yes, sir. This is a New York City Police Department record of one Ernest Filocomo, alias Ernie Kippy. The record shows

The CHAIRMAN. You procured it from the police department?

Mr. CORRIGAN. I did, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be made exhibit No. 29A.
Mr. KENNEDY. I would just like to get it summarized.

The CHAIRMAN. You can summarize it. It has been made an exhibit.

(Document referred to marked "Exhibit No. 29A" for reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.)

Mr. CORRIGAN. The record shows some seven arrests with five convictions. The convictions are for unlawful entry, for burglary, disorderly conduct, assault, and for policy.

Mr. KENNEDY. And he spent some time in Sing Sing for the assault, did he?

Mr. CORRIGAN. That is correct, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Sentenced in 1944 for 4 to 5 years in Sing Sing. Is that correct?

Mr. CORRIGAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Where did Mr. Filocomo direct you to drive?

Mr. SAUL. We finally ended up in a luncheonette on Church Avenue near McDonald Avenue in Brooklyn, called Jackie's.

Mr. KENNEDY. Jackie's?

Mr. SAUL. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. Do you know who owned Jackie's restaurant?
Mr. SAUL. No, I didn't know who owned it.

Mr. KENNEDY. Relate what happened.

Mr. SAUL. Well, we went into Jackie 's restaurant and he introduced me to a man called Larry Gallo.

Mr. KENNEDY. G-a-1-1-o?

Mr. SAUL. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you know who Larry Gallo was?
Mr. SAUL. No. I never met him before.

And Mr. Gallo invited me to sit down and have a cup of coffee with him. Filocomo sat down next to us. Mr. Gallo asked me how I got that location. I told him the same story. He said that the location had belonged to him. I told him that I didn't know anything about it and that I had come about the location in an honest manner, that we had purchased the location from the owner of the luncheonette. We had a contract with him and there weren't any problems at all.

Then Mr. Gallo asked me how many machines I had. I told him I had eight machines.

The CHAIRMAN. You only had eight at that time?
Mr. SAUL. Yes. That is what I told Mr. Gallo.
The CHAIRMAN. That is what you told him?

Mr. SAUL. That is what I told him.

Mr. Gallo suggested that he had the same amount of machines that I had, that we become partners, and that I would operate the route. I told Mr. Gallo that I had a very bad taste about the business, I didn't care for it, and was anxious to get out of it. I had been in it more or less to pay off some debts because of a previous business loss, and that I was trying to straighten myself out and get out of that business.

Mr. Gallo said that if I were to become partners with him that he would have nothing to do with it, that I would operate the business myself, and that he would get me locations.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did he say how he was going to get locations?

Mr. SAUL. No, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did he indicate that there was going to be a lot of money in it for you?

Mr. SAUL. Well, he said I would be well off if I went with him. Mr. KENNEDY. What was Kip doing during this period of time? Mr. SAUL. During the conversation a few times Kip started threatening me again, and finally Mr. Gallo sent him out.

Mr. KENNEDY. Again, that he was going to kill you?

Mr. SAUL. Well, he said-he didn't actually say that he would kill me in the restaurant, but he said they would find my body off the Belt Parkway, which was practically the same thing. He kept saying that for everyone like him that was arrested, or that was found, there would be 100 more like him.

Mr. KENNEDY. Do you mean if you turned him in?

Mr. SAUL. If I turned him in, there would be 100 more like him that would take his place.

Mr. KENNEDY. That would get you if you turned his name over to anyone?

Mr. SAUL. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. Finally Gallo sent him away; is that right?

Mr. SAUL. Gallo sent him out, yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. What finally happened between you and Gallo? What did you finally decide to do?

Mr. SAUL. Well, I believe Mr. Gallo thought I was sincere about what I said, and he gave me his card and said that if at any time I decided I wanted to go further into the business, he would be happy to go into further discussion about it.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did he introduce you to another man and say that he had set him up in business?

Mr. SAUL. Yes; he did.

Mr. KENNEDY. That was before you left the restaurant?

Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. He gave you a card, did he, before you left?

Mr. SAUL. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. What did the card say?

Mr. SAUL. Well, actually he marked his name on the back of the card and his telephone number.

Mr. KENNEDY. What did the front of the card say ?

Mr. SAUL. I believe it had to do with some kind of a laundry workers union, or cafeteria workers.

Mr. KENNEDY. Local 26 of the Cafeteria Workers?

Mr. SAUL. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. Local 26, Cafeteria Workers Union, FSWU, Federated Service Workers Union?

Mr. SAUL. Yes; that was the card.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you know what connection Gallo had with this union?

Mr. SAUL. No, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did he speak to you at all about the union at that time?

Mr. SAUL. No, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. You left the restaurant. Then in October 1957 did you receive another call?

Mr. SAUL. Yes. I received a call to call Wagon Wheels.

Mr. KENNEDY. The same place?

Mr. SAUL. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. Go ahead.

Mr. SAUL. I called Wagon Wheels and they told me that Kip wanted to talk to me. So I said I would be down at my convenience within the next few days.

When I came there somebody went out to get this fellow Kip.

I waited a few minutes and Kip came walking in. Kip asked me to do him a favor. This time he was very friendly.

He asked me to do him a favor. He wanted me to sign with his union, which was a union for jukeboxes. I told Kip at the time that I only had one jukebox and I couldn't be of any value to him. He said it didn't matter, but I would be helping him a great deal.

He said that I should go to Jackie's Luncheonette and see Mr. Gallo, and Mr. Gallo would have the forms for me to sign.

Mr. KENNEDY. What union did he say this was?

Mr. SAUL. When I asked him he said it was local 19.

Mr. KENNEDY. And he said that it would be a big help to them if you would join the union?

Mr. SAUL. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you tell him that you were already in a union? Mr. SAUL. Yes: I did.

Mr. KENNEDY. What did he say about that?

Mr. SAUL. He said it didn't matter.

Mr. KENNEDY. And he suggested you go back to the restaurant where you had gone originally and meet Mr. Gallo and sign up with local 19?

Mr. SAUL. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you understand that the Gallos at that time owned local 19?

Mr. SAUL. Well, I hadn't never heard of it before; I knew nothing about it. That is, when I say I hadn't heard about it, I hadn't heard about Mr. Gallo being associated with local 19. But I did rear rumors that local 19 was trying to get in, and it was a problem union.

Mr. KENNEDY. So what did you do then? Did you tell him that you would?

Mr. SAUL. I told him that I would, at my convenience I would go to Jackie's Luncheonette and sign up.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did you ever go down there?

Mr. SAUL. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. KENNEDY. On December 19, you just left the restaurant and they allowed you to leave peacefully?

Mr. SAUL. I think you have your dates wrong.

Mr. KENNEDY. Well, in October when you went down and met with Kip and had this conversation about the local union. You leftMr. SAUL. On a friendly basis.

Mr. KENNEDY. Then on December 19, 1957, you were having dinner at home that evening, on or about December 19?

Mr. SAUL. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. That is when you received a telephone call?

Mr. SAUL. I received a telephone call while I was in the midst of my dinner, and when I answered the phone, the voice at the other

end questioned me as to whether I was the "Sid" that had the jukebox in the Wagon Wheels. I said I was, and he said he wanted to see me right away, at Wagon Wheels. I said I couldn't readily do that, I was having my dinner, and I questioned as to whom I was speaking to. He said it didn't matter who I was speaking to, and that he wanted

to see me.

I said, "If I didn't know who I am talking to, I am not going to come down."

He said, "Unless I see you here very shortly, your machine will be out in the gutter," practically the same threat I had the last time, that my machine would be out in the gutter and smashed to bits, beyond use. I thought it best that I go down to see him, and I arranged an appointment for about 8 o'clock that evening.

Then I went to the Wagon Wheels.

Mr. KENNEDY. Before you arrived there, did you take some steps to protect yourself?

Mr. SAUL. Yes. I was kind of worried about going there, from the conversation by the party at the other end of the wire, so I called my service telephone number and told the operator that I was going in to meet somebody that I did not know and I didn't like the sound of it, and if everything was all right I would call her back within a half hour, and if I didn't call her back within a half hour for her to notify the local police that something was wrong.

When I got to the location I was directed to the back part of the luncheonette, which is up two short steps and which has a series of tables in the back room. This back room is not closed, but it is all open, the same width as the front part of the store.

I sat down at the table with two men that I had never met before. I later found out their names.

Mr. KENNEDY. Who did you find out that they were?

Mr. SAUL. I found one was Charles Panarella and the other fellow was Dutch Tuzio.

Mr. KENNEDY. P-a-n-a-r-e-l-l-a; and the other gentleman is T-u-z-i-o?

Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I hand you two photographs and ask you to examine them and state if you identify them.

(Photographs were handed to the witness.)

Mr. SAUL. This is Charles Panarella.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be made exhibit No. 30.

(Photograph referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 30" for reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.) Mr. SAUL. And this man is Tuzio.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be made exhibit 30A.

(Photograph referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 30A" for reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.)

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Counsel, do we have the criminal records of these men?

Mr. KENNEDY. We do.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you procure those criminal records from the New York Police Department?

Mr. CORRIGAN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be made exhibit 30A1 and 2. Keep them identified with the pictures and photographs.