(Documents referred to were marked "Exhibits Nos. 30A1 and 30A2" for reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.) Mr. KENNEDY. Could I summarize this?

The CHAIRMAN. You may summarize them because they have been made exhibits.

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Charles Panarella, alias Len Conforti, has been arrested eight times and convicted five times. He has been convicted for assault; grand larceny with an auto; burglary, for which he received 5 to 10 years in Sing Sing; violation of his parole twice; and disorderly conduct with dice.

Mr. Anthony "Dutch" Tuzio has been arrested seven times, has three convictions. He has been convicted of burglary twice, and he has been convicted once for murder, for which he received a sentence in 1934 of 20 years to life, plus 5 to 10 years additional for being armed. In 1957 the original sentence was vacated and he was then sentenced for manslaughter in the first degree and received a 15- to 22-year sentence. As his time expired, he was freed at that time, 1957, just prior to his meeting with this gentleman.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, he was just out of the penitentiary at the time this interview with you took place?

Mr. SAUL. I didn't know the man at all, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You didn't know him; he was a stranger?

Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. He had just been out of Sing Sing for a conviction of murder which in 1947 was lowered to manslaughter in the first degree.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. KENNEDY. Would you relate the conversation, please, that you had with this gentleman?

Mr. SAUL. Well, when I sat down at the table, this Panarella started the questioning. He asked me how I got into the location, approximately the same questions I was asked the last time; how many machines I was operating, and they went into other phases, parts of conversation, that had nothing to do with jukeboxes.

It seems as though they had tried calling my home the day before, which was on a Sunday, and I wasn't home. They had spoken to one of my sons. They wanted to know where I was that Sunday.

During one part of the conversation I just raised my finger and pointed it at Panarella, unmeaningly, and with that he took an open hand and just slapped me across the jaw.

I am jumping ahead of myself.

There was about 25 minutes wasted with very little conversation prior to that, so I excused myself and went to the telephone to call my service operator, telling her that it seemed like there was nothing wrong, that the fellows just wanted to ask me some questions and for her to forget the instructions I had given her prior to my arriving at this luncheonette.

Then when I came back I wasn't sitting more than about 2 or 3 minutes when Panarella just slapped me across the face, but pretty hard. At that time he said he made the same type of an offer that Mr. Gallo made, that he would put up an equal amount of equipment for us to become partners, and that I would do the operating of it and we would go further into this business.

I told him the same thing about having a distaste for the business. Then he wanted to know what I was going to do for him in that particular location that we were at.

Mr. KENNEDY. Did he ask you first how many machines you had? Mr. SAUL. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. What did you tell him?

Mr. SAUL. I told him three.

Mr. KENNEDY. What did he say then?

Mr. SAUL. He said, "I thought you had eight."

Mr. KENNEDY. The only place he could have gotten that conversation was from your conversation with Mr. Gallo, originally, or with Kippy?

Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir.

Senator CAPEHART. How many machines did you actually have?

Mr. KENNEDY. I think he would rather leave that. He had more than that.

Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir.

Senator CAPEHART. Why did you tell them you only had three or only had eight?

Mr. SAUL. Well, I didn't want to get involved with him. I thought it would discourage his conversation.

Mr. KENNEDY. Would you continue?

Mr. SAUL. Then he wanted to know what I was going to do for him that location where I had the jukebox. When he said that, I really didn't know what he meant, as to what I was going to do for him. He said, well, the location belonged to him, and he wanted to be a partner in it.

I said I wasn't looking for any partners, I was going to get out of the business completely, just within the next 2 or 3 months I would

be out of it.

He excused himself for a minute and walked away from the table. At that time I was left with Tuzio.

Tuzio started questioning me about Sunday again, why I wasn't home. He seemed to doubt me, and I didn't think it had any importance in the conversation at all.

Then Panarella came back.

Originally Panarella sat directly in front of me. I was sitting along right next to the wall, and there was an empty seat on my left. Panarella sat in front of me and Tuzio sat on the other side, too.

But before Panarella came back, Tuzio came and sat next to me and Panarella sat down in the other seat where Tuzio sat before. Mr. KENNEDY. What had he done when he was away, when he walked away?

Mr. SAUL. I don't know.

Mr. KENNEDY. Had the jukebox been put on?

Mr. SAUL. No. He didn't put the jukebox on.

Then they started asking me for $500. I don't know why they wanted $500, but that is what they wanted, $500. I told them I didn't have that kind of money to give them, and they kept questioning me as to what I was going to do for them on the jukebox; that they wanted to be a partner in this particular location.

With that, this Filocomo walked into the store.

Mr. KENNEDY. This is Kippy?

Mr. SAUL. Kippy.

The CHAIRMAN. That made the third one present?

Mr. SAUL. That made the third one present, yes. He walked right over to the table and he said, "I didn't know you knew these fellows." So I said, "I didn't know them. I just met them."

The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean you didn't recognize him immediately?

Mr. SAUL. No. Kip said to me that he didn't know I knew Panarella and Tuzio. I told him I didn't know them, that I just met them. Tuzio went over and put a coin in the jukebox, came right back and pushed his chair back, instead of sitting in line with me

Mr. KENNEDY. I am sorry to interrupt you, but didn't Kip men

tion the union at that time?

Mr. SAUL. Yes. Kip said to me, "You never signed up with 19, did you?"

I said no, that I hadn't had a chance to go to this luncheonette. Mr. KENNEDY. It was then that they went over and put a coin in the jukebox?

Mr. SAUL. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. Then he came back?

Mr. SAUL. Tuzio went and put a coin in the jukebox. He came back and pushed his chair back. With that, Kip took his coat off-he was wearing a short jacket-and before I had a chance to say anything, he started punching into me.

(At this point Senator Ervin entered the hearing room.)

The CHAIRMAN. Started punching you where?

Mr. SAUL. Around my face and head.

The CHAIRMAN. Was that with his fist?

Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir. I started pleading with them, and it didn't seem to have any effect. The only remark was that I was an excellent actor. They kept saying to each other, "This fellow is an actor," because I was pleading with them to stop beating me.

He kept pounding away at my head and face and it got to a point where I was just barely able to keep my head up. Every time I started to plead, Panarella would lift a napkin holder, a commercialtype napkin holder used in luncheonettes, with the open face on both sides, about ten inches high-he lifted it in his hand and said he would bash my skull in if I said anything else.

He kept pounding away and Tuzio kept saying, "If you haven't got $500, give them $300. It is cheaper than buying a new set of teeth"-that it would cost me more for a new set of teeth than $500. I kept pleading to stop beating me, and Kip just didn't let up. (Members of the select committee present at this point in the proceedings were Senators McClellan, Ervin, and Capehart.)

The CHAIRMAN. They were beating you then ostensibly to try to make you pay off, $500 or $300?

Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what they were demanding while they were beating you?

Mr. SAUL. And they wanted to be a partner in the machine at the location.

36751-59-pt. 46- -24

The CHAIRMAN. They wanted that too, but as I understood, they kept saying that you should pay off $500, or if you can't give $500, give $300?

Mr. SAUL. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What was that payoff for?

Mr. SAUL. Well, they claimed the location belonged to them.

The CHAIRMAN. They claimed the location belonged to them and if you wanted to get along with them you had to pay off?

Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I see. All right.

Mr. SAUL. Finally, I was bleeding profusely from the right nostril and my mouth, and he stopped punching me.

Mr. KENNEDY. Were you losing consciousness?

Mr. SAUL. I sort of felt I was losing consciousness and I was slumping over the table, yes. With that Panarella ordered some coffee brought to the table. So I wiped the blood from my face and I had the coffee and just barely got through with the coffeeMr. KENNEDY. Did one of them bring you a wet towel?

Mr. SAUL. Not then. I just sort of got through with the coffee, and I wasn't even finished when he started asking for the $500 again. Before I had a chance to look up, Kip was back at me and this time it was really heavy, much heavier than he was before. I didn't know what to say, and I didn't cry, and I just went along and pleaded with them, and I kept pleading with them to stop beating me. This time I was bleeding from both nostrils and my mouth, and I felt myself going to a subconscious mind. Just as my head was slumping over, I could hear everything that was going on, and this Panarella said to Kip to stop, but Kip didn't stop.

He was like a wild man, and he just kept punching away at me, and finally he jumped up from the table and he yelled something to him, "Lascialo," which I later found out meant to stop in Italian, and with that Kip took his jacket and walked out.

Then Panarella ordered some more coffee. At this stage of the game my mouth felt like it was full of sand and I was all full of blood, and Panarella reached over and he straightened my tie. He called for a wet towel, or he got up. He called for one and then he helped wipe the blood off my face.

Mr. KENNEDY. Was the blood coming out your ears also by this time?

Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir; and I couldn't open my mouth at all, and my jaws felt as though they were locked at the end, and I could barely talk and barely say anything. Then he started the conversation again that he wanted to be a partner on the jukebox. Finally, out of desperation I said I would take them in as a partner.

So he said, "Well, I don't want a third of this; I want Paul, the owner of the luncheonette, to have his 50-percent share, but I want to be a partner in your share."

In other words, I was to get 25 percent of the income instead of 50 percent.

I finally agreed to that, and he gave me instructions to leave the money in an envelope, or in a paper bag for him with the owner of the luncheonette.

Before I left he said that if he found out that I had more machines than the three I said I had, there would be trouble.

He also said that I shouldn't make any attempt at taking that jukebox out of that location. He made a statement that if I went to the district attorney, I would be sorry.

With that I went to the mirror to fix myself, and fixed my shirt, and my face, and washed my face, and my nose was completely out of shape, and it was formed like a horseshoe, like a U, and, as a matter of fact, it is out of shape now because of that. But it was like a complete U, just this way.

I left them and I went to my family doctor, and he wasn't in and I then went home; and when I came into my home, my wife realized there was something wrong just by looking at me, and I barely made the chair. My nerves seemed to react more so then than at the time of the beating, and she didn't want me to go any further without seeing a doctor, and so she called a doctor that was used by somebody in the family, just about two blocks from where I live.

We went there, and he sent me to the hospital the next morning, but there were no fractures of any kind. My eye was all closed, completely closed, and my nose was out of shape, and I couldn't chew food for almost 3 weeks. While I was in bed, about 2 days later, I called my truckman and asked him to go to that location and take the machine out.

He called me that morning, and his conversation was something like this

The CHAIRMAN. Who called you?

Mr. SAUL. My truckman, and he said, "Sid, do you have a partner?" And I said, "No."

He said, "Well, these people won't let the machine go out. They say you have a partner named Charlie and Charlie said that machine doesn't go out, it stays here."

So I tried to speak to the owner, and the owner said he is not letting that machine out, he had instructions from Charlie that it belongs to him, and the machine doesn't go out of the location.

With that I called the attorney for the Game Association, Mr. Blatt, and Mr. Blatt said if I would meet him the next day he would get the machine for me.

When I met Mr. Blatt the next morning, he took me up to the district attorney's office.

Mr. KENNEDY. You have been under the protection of the district attorney's office since that time?

Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. You have had a police guard since that time?
Mr. SAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Chairman, I might say that the three men that participated in the beating according to the testimony of the witness, were invited to appear before the committee and told that this testimony would be developed, and we never heard from them again. We did not subpena them to appear because they are under indictment through the efforts of the district attorney in Brooklyn, and they are going to go to trial. There was one trial which, as I understand, resulted in a hung jury of 11 to 1, and these three gentlemen are going to be retried by the district attorney in Brooklyn.

The CHAIRMAN. It is on these identical charges, or for this of fense that you have related here?