INVESTIGATION OF IMPROPER ACTIVITIES IN THE LABOR OR MANAGEMENT FIELD WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 26, 1958 U.S. SENATE, SELECT COMMITTEE ON IMPROPER ACTIVITIES Washington, D.C. The select committee met at 4:25 p.m., pursuant to Senate Resolution 221, agreed to January 29, 1958, in the caucus room of the Senate Office Building, Senator John L. McClellan (chairman of the select committee) presiding. Present: Senator John L. McClellan, Democrat, Arkansas; Senator Irving M. Ives, Republican, New York; Senator Sam J. Ervin, Jr., Democrat, North Carolina; Senator Barry Goldwater, Republican, Arizona. Also present: Robert F. Kennedy, chief counsel; Jerome S. Adlerman, assistant chief counsel; Ruth Young Watt, chief clerk. The CHAIRMAN. The committee will be in order. (Members of the committee present at the convening of the session were: Senators McClellan, Ives, Ervin, and Goldwater.) The CHAIRMAN. We will proceed. Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. Chairman, I have a witness here from a long distance that I would like to get some information from and also some records. The CHAIRMAN. Call the witness. Mr. KENNEDY. Mrs. Hyman Larner. The CHAIRMAN. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mrs. LARNER. I do. TESTIMONY OF MRS. MYRTLE LARNER, ACCOMPANIED BY HER COUNSEL, JAMES A. BROWN The CHAIRMAN. Will you state your name, and your place of residence and your business or occupation? Mrs. LARNER. Myrtle Larner, 1290 Northeast 101st Street, Miami Shores, housewife. The CHAIRMAN. Do you have counsel present to represent you? The CHAIRMAN. Counsel, will you identify yourself for the record? Mr. BROWN. My name is James A. Brown, B-r-o-w-n, and I am an attorney licensed to practice in Illinois and in the Federal courts, and my office is at 111 West Washington Street, Chicago. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. All right, Mr. Kennedy, proceed. Mr. KENNEDY. Mrs. Larner, do you know Mr. Thomas Waterfall? Mrs. LARNER. I am sorry. I will have to invoke the fifth amendment on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me. Mr. KENNEDY. He is your husband, is he not? Mrs. LARNER. It may tend to incriminate me. Mr. KENNEDY. Is he also known as "Red" Waterfall? Mr. KENNEDY. Do you know anything regarding his relationship with local 134 in Chicago, the jukebox local? Mrs. LARNER. Again I must take the fifth amendment. Mr. KENNEDY. Do you know Edward "Dutch" Vogel? The CHAIRMAN. I don't believe you are going to be very helpful, are you? Mr. KENNEDY. What interests do you have, or what businesses do you have an interest in at the present time? Mrs. LARNER. I am not in business. The CHAIRMAN. You have no businesses? The CHAIRMAN. I did not understand you. Mrs. LARNER. I have no business. The CHAIRMAN. You have no business and no business interest? Mrs. LARNER. No. Mr. KENNEDY. Does your husband have an interest in the Jukebox Association in Chicago, Ill.? Mrs. LARNER. I again must invoke the fifth amendment. Mr. KENNEDY. Do you receive any income from the Jukebox Association in Chicago, Ill.? Mrs. LARNER. Again, in my opinion, I invoke the fifth amendment. Mr. KENNEDY. We went in to get the records of the Jukebox Association in Chicago, Ill., and we were told at that time that Red Waterfall picked the records up and left the city. Can you tell us where "Red" Waterfall went to? Mr. KENNEDY. Do you know where the records are? Mrs. LARNER. Again my answer is the same. Mr. KENNEDY. Do you know anything about the Peerless Steel Specialty Co. ? Mrs. LARNER. What is that? I am sorry, counselor. Mr. KENNEDY. Do you know anything about the Peerless Steel Specialty Co. ? Mrs. LARNER. In my opinion, this might tend to incriminate me. Mr. KENNEDY. And the Crossroads Restaurant in Cicero, Ill.? Mrs. LARNER. I give you the same answer. The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything we can ask you that won't incriminate you? Mrs. LARNER. May I confer with my counsel? The CHAIRMAN. Yes. (Witness conferred with her counsel.) Mrs. LARNER. Mr. Counselor, in reference to my subpena, I have read it thoroughly and it appears to me that you are trying to implicate me in something in which I do not believe I am involved. The CHAIRMAN. Well, that is fine. Then if you are not involved, it is not likely to incriminate you. Can you give us the information now that we need? Mrs. LARNER. This subpena was issued to me in Miami Shores requiring records, and if there are any records, they are not in Miami Shores. The CHAIRMAN. Can you tell us where they are? Mrs. LARNER. I take the fifth amendment. (At this point the following members were present: Senators McClellan, Ives, Goldwater, and Ervin.) The CHAIRMAN. Do you know they are not? Mrs. LARNER. They are not in Miami Shores. The CHAIRMAN. But you take the fifth amendment when you refuse to tell us where they are? Obviously, you know where they are. Do you? Mrs. LARNER. Again I take the fifth amendment. The CHAIRMAN. You don't say you do or don't? Is that right? Mrs. LARNER. This may tend to incriminate me. The CHAIRMAN. It may tend to incriminate you if you say you do or say you don't; is that correct? Mrs. LARNER. Yes. Mr. KENNEDY. Do you know "Jukebox" Smith? Mrs. LARNER. May I consult? (The witness conferred with her counsel.) Mrs. LARNER. I am sorry, gentlemen, I will have to take the fifth amendment again. Mr. KENNEDY. Do you know where "Red" Waterfall is at the present time? Mrs. LARNER. Again I take the fifth amendment. The CHAIRMAN. You don't mean that you take the fifth amendment on whether he is related to you or not, do you? (The witness conferred with her counsel.) Mrs. LARNER. I will have to take the fifth amendment. The CHAIRMAN. Whether he is your husband or not? Mrs. LARNER. Concerning my relationship with anybody. The CHAIRMAN. Anybody? You know better than I do whether it might incriminate you to admit he is your husband. If you say it might, we will risk your judgment for the moment. Is that your position. Mrs. LARNER. In my opinion. Mr. KENNEDY. Who owns the home that you are living in at the present time? (The witness conferred with her counsel.) Mr. BROWN. May we confer, Mr. Counsel? The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir. (The witness conferred with her counsel.) Mrs. LARNER. I will answer that. My husband and myself and the mortgage company. The CHAIRMAN. What is the name of the mortgage company? (The witness conferred with her counsel.) Mrs. LARNER. I am sorry, I refuse to answer that. The CHAIRMAN. What is the name of your husband? (The witness conferred with her counsel.) Mrs. LARNER. Hy Larner. The CHAIRMAN. I beg your pardon? Mrs. LARNER. Hy Larner. The CHAIRMAN. Is he one and the same fellow as-who is it? The CHAIRMAN. "Red" Waterfall? Is that one and the same person? Mrs. LARNER. I am sorry. Again I take the fifth amendment. The CHAIRMAN. It is all right as long as we call him by the name of Hy Larner. You don't mind saying he is your husband. But when we call him by the other name, you say it might incriminate you if you acknowledge that, is that correct? (The witness conferred with her counsel.) Mrs. LARNER. That is my opinion. Mr. KENNEDY. How long have you owned the house? Could you tell me that? Mrs. LARNER. About 4 years. Maybe a little bit more. Mr. KENNEDY. And how much did the house cost? Mrs. LARNER. I can't really remember. Mr. KENNEDY. Your husband handled the transaction did he? Mr. KENNEDY. Where can we get hold of him now? Mrs. LARNER. I am sorry. I have to take the fifth amendment on that. Mr. KENNEDY. When did you last talk to him? Will you tell us that? Mrs. LARNER. On that, too, I will have to take the fifth amend ment on. The CHAIRMAN. Was it a friendly conversation? Mrs. LARNER. I hope you wouldn't think I am rude when I say that is personal. The CHAIRMAN. I wouldn't. Mr. KENNEDY. We served a subpena on Mrs. Larner to produce, for the period January 1, 1960 to date All copies of income tax returns of Myrtle Larner and Hyman Larner and all records reflecting the business, financial, and commercial dealings of yourself and of Hyman Larner, with yourselves and others, including but not limited to bankbooks, personal telephone and address books, copies of income tax returns, correspondence, bank statements, canceled checks, bank stubs, copies of mortgages, and other memoranda, reflecting your financial, business, and commercial transactions during the above-stated period. Do you have those records with you? Mrs. LARNER. I have no records. Mr. KENNEDY. You don't have any records? Mrs. LARNER. No. Mr. KENNEDY. You don't have any personal records? Mrs. LARNER. No. Mr. KENNEDY. Do you have a bankbook? Mrs. LARNER. I don't have anything. Mr. KENNEDY. Where is your bankbook? Mr. KENNEDY. You don't have a bank? (The witness conferred with her counsel.) Mrs. LARNER. This was all issued in Miami Shores. Mr. KENNEDY. What? Mrs. LARNER. This subpena, as it is described, was issued in Miami Shores, served on me in Miami Shores. I have no records in Miami Shores. Mr. KENNEDY. Well, where are the records, then? Mrs. LARNER. On that, I, too, will have to take the fifth amendment. Mr. KENNEDY. You mean you have no records in Miami Shores? Mrs. LARNER. That is right. Mr. KENNEDY. Well, then, somebody else has custody of your records. You have records, do you not? Mrs. LARNER. If any. Mr. KENNEDY. Excuse me? Mrs. LARNER. If any. Mr. KENNEDY. You do have records? Mrs. LARNER. I have nothing. Mr. KENNEDY. Did you have records at the time the subpena was served upon you? Mrs. LARNER. No, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. You did not? Mrs. LARNER. No, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. You have no records, such as are described here? Mrs. LARNER. That is right. Mr. KENNEDY. You have no bank account, for instance? Mr. BROWN. May I have a word, please? Mr. KENNEDY. It doesn't matter where the subpena is served. Or whether she has the records in Chicago or anywhere else, as long as she has custody or control of the records. Mr. BROWN. What the young lady, I am sure, is trying to tell you is that if she had any records, if any, in other words, they are not in Miami Shores. She is not telling you she has any records. I would not advise her to tell you she has no records, as I told Mr. O'Donnell, one of your investigators, for fear that some one of the men who has been about the house in the last week might find a telephone tab or something which might be included in here. Then the young lady would be guilty of perjury. I am telling you that to the best of her knowledge, she has none of these records at all. Mr. KENNEDY. Any place? Mr. BROWN. Yes. But I don't want her to say it for fear-don't forget, you are asking even for telephone books. Most of these things are joint that you are asking for. Mr. KENNEDY. With Mr. Larner? Mr. BROWN. That is what you are asking for, joint accounts, joint telephone books, and joint everything. He might have a joint telephone book. Mr. KENNEDY. Where could we get in touch with him and ask him? Mr. BROWN. I just wouldn't be at liberty to say that, I regret. The CHAIRMAN. Do you represent him? Mr. BROWN. I represent Mrs. Larner, today. Mr. KENNEDY. Today? Mr. BROWN. Yes. And even yesterday. |