Mr. KAPLAN. Chuck English is well related to the entire operation; yes, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. And the only person that received any penalty out of this, when the case ultimately was tried, was Hilger, who received the $50 fine? Mr. KAPLAN. Yes, sir; he pleaded guilty to two counts. Mr. KENNEDY. And received a $50 fine? Mr. KAPLAN. Actually, he was fined $100 on each of the two counts, but $75 was suspended on the two counts. So it totaled $50. Mr. KENNEDY. Were you ever interviewed by anybody from the State's attorney's office in Chicago? TESTIMONY OF CARL J. BURKHARDT, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, ALFRED D. MEITUS-Resumed Mr. BURKHARDT. No, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. Nobody ever came down to see you? Mr. BURKHARDT. No, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. Nobody ever got what information you had about this operation? Mr. BURKHARDT. No, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. So there were some 120,000 records that we know of that were printed in this manner which were ultimately shown to be counterfeit records? Mr. KAPLAN. Yes, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. And one of the participants pleaded guilty and received the fine? Mr. KAPLAN. Yes, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. Is there anything further? Mr. KAPLAN. Well, they nolle prossed the original indictment on the counterfeit records and changed them over to forged labels and only on a small quantity of this production. So there seems to be an area which was not hit. Mr. KENNEDY. Do you want to put the names of the labels seized by the Cincinnati police into the record, Mr. Chairman? The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Kaplan, did you secure from the records of this man's business a list of the labels that were used? Mr. KAPLAN. No, sir. I received that record, sir, from the prosecuting attorney of Hamilton County in Ohio. The CHAIRMAN. I show you this list, Mr. Burkhardt, and ask you to examine it, these three pages I am showing being alike. Examine these labels that are listed here and see if you recognize them as labels that were used in your operation. (A document was handed to the witness.) (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. BURKHARDT. What is it you wanted me to answer with regard to the list? The CHAIRMAN. Is that list accurate and correct? Do you recognize it as a list of labels that you used in this operation? (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. BURKHARDT. To the best of my knowledge The CHAIRMAN. Or labels that you copied? Mr. BURKHARDT. To the best of my knowledge, that list appears to be correct; that is, it has the names of various labels that we have had in our possession. However, I will state this: There are a number of label names on there that I am quite sure were never pressed. In other words, there is at least three or four that were never pressed, they never got into production for one reason or another. The CHAIRMAN. Would you name the three or four? Mr. BURKHARDT. I can't be sure on that. I would have to guess. The CHAIRMAN. Well, those you think are exceptions, that were not used. In the meantime, this list may be made exhibit No. 57. (List referred to was made exhibit No. 57 for reference and may be found in the files of the select committee.) The CHAIRMAN. The witness can point out the exceptions. (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. KENNEDY. Why don't you just read the names out? Mr. BURKHARDT. Mr. Chairman, I want to make it clear, though, that I didn't make these labels. The CHAIRMAN. You used the labels? Mr. BURKHARDT. I only used the labels. The labels were furnished me. I want to make clear that I did not counterfeit these labels or print these labels. The CHAIRMAN. I understand that. These are the labels that were furnished you that you used in carrying out your arrangements with them. They provided you with these labels, as I understand you. Mr. BURKHARDT. It appears to be, if my memory serves me correct, that there are either three or four items on here which never got into production. The CHAIRMAN. Can you identify those three or four? Mr. BURKHARDT. The Herald item, marked H-510; "The Whadda Do" and "Congratulations." That never got into production. The Vee Jay item, "You Can't Make It If You Try," and "Hey, Hey, I Love You," I am quite sure that that never did get anywhere. And Warner "We're Strolling," and "Crowded Classroom," that didn't go into production. There is one of the Roulette numbers that I am quite sure didn't go into production either, but I don't know which one it was, because, if I am not mistaken, there was only one Roulette record that was ever pressed. I could be wrong on that. This shows there is something wrong with this list. It shows seven Roulette items. It ought to be eight, if there were four records. But there is at least one or two of these Roulette items that never was produced. The man only sent the labels and that was the end of it. It didn't go anywhere. The same held true with the Herald, the Vee Jay, and the Warner. The CHAIRMAN. Those were all provided you, but some three or four didn't get into production; is that correct? Mr. BURKHARDT. That is correct, sir. The CHAIRMAN. All right. (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. KENNEDY. At the end, they stopped certifying the checks, and they sent you regular checks, is that right, and a couple of these bounced? Mr. BURKHARDT. No. The last check they sent wasn't certified and that is the one that bounced. Mr. KENNEDY. How much was that for, approximately? Mr. BURKHARDT. Just a little under $900. I don't remember the exact amount. Mr. KENNEDY. That is the only one that bounced? Mr. BURKHARDT. That is right, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. Did you hear from them again? Mr. BURKHARDT. No, sir. Mr. KENNEDY. They never came back to see you or contacted you. again? Mr. BURKHARDT. I got one phone call wanting to know what was happening down in Cincinnati, after the operation stopped. Mr. KENNEDY. The what? Mr. BURKHARDT. I got one phone call. Mr. KENNEDY. Did they want you to start up an operation again? Mr. BURKHARDT. No. He asked me what was going on in reference to the police department and the charges, and I told the man there had been no charges against me as an individual or against the company. Mr. KENNEDY. Was there any discussion about getting back into operation? Mr. BURKHARDT. He asked me pointblank if I wanted to make any more records, and I told him no. Mr. KENNEDY. When was this? Mr. BURKHARDT. About 6 months ago. Mr. KENNEDY. You didn't get certified checks all the time, Mr. Burkhardt? Mr. BURKHARDT. Well, sir, what I mean is I couldn't state that all the checks were certified. Mr. KENNEDY. According to your records here, of 15 checks only 4 of them were certified. Mr. BURKHARDT. Well, I don't know why. I just asked for certified checks. Mr. KENNEDY. You didn't get them at all at the beginning, in January 1958. None of those checks was certified. Mr. BURKHARDT. Wait a minute. There was a contingency on about the second or third check, and at that point I told them I wanted certified checks. Mr. KENNEDY. That is all. The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions? The order the Chair gave you in the beginning with respect to the questions that were asked you still continues. Do you want to continue to refuse to answer them, or do you want to answer the question? Mr. BURKHARDT. I have to refuse, sir. The CHAIRMAN. All right. Are there any other questions? The CHAIRMAN. You may stand aside. Call the next witness. Mr. MEITUS. Am I to understand that this witness is excused? The CHAIRMAN. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this Senate select committee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. ENGLISH. I do. TESTIMONY OF CHARLES ENGLISH The CHAIRMAN. State your name, your place of residence, and you business or occupation. Mr. ENGLISH. My name is Charles English, and I live at 1834 South Austin Boulevard, Cicero, Ill. The CHAIRMAN. Did you say what your occupation is, Mr. English? Mr. ENGLISH. I decline to answer on the ground I may intend to incriminate myself. The CHAIRMAN. You may "intend" to, or you may "tend” to? Mr. ENGLISH. I may tend to incriminate myself, and if I say it wrong, Mr. Chairman, I am not an attorney and I am not advised by counsel, and if I say it wrong, I am sorry. There is no disrespect to the committee. The CHAIRMAN. All right. You waive counsel, do you? Mr. ENGLISH. Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Proceed. Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. English, you had an interest in the Lormar Distributing Co.? Mr. ENGLISH. I decline to answer on the ground I may tend to incriminate myself. Mr. KENNEDY. And you were involved in the forcing of operators in the Chicago area, as I understand, and in Wisconsin, and in Ohio, and to some extent in Michigan and Minnesota, to purchase records from the Lormar Distributing Co.; is that right? Mr. ENGLISH. I decline to answer on the ground I may tend to incriminate myself. Mr. KENNEDY. And people with known criminal associations would go around to the distributors and tell them that they had to purchase a certain percentage of their records from your company! Mr. ENGLISH. I decline to answer on the ground I may tend to incriminate myself. The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Counsel, was this the operation in which they were using the labor officials to make this threat? Mr. KENNEDY. That is right. The CHAIRMAN. I don't know whether we asked any questions of the previous witness that would keep the link of relationship between the labor union in the enforcement of this or that part of this operation. Mr. KENNEDY. He would have no information along these lines. Mr. KENNEDY. This is the witness, Mr. Chairman, that owned the company where the labor union officials were used in order to promote their sales. The CHAIRMAN. It is the company whose sales the labor union was used to promote in that area? Mr. KENNEDY. That is correct. The CHAIRMAN. I just wanted to keep the connection. Mr. KENNEDY. And these individuals, these operators, were told that they could have labor difficulties unless they purchased your records; is that right? Mr. ENGLISH. I decline—are you through with the question? Mr. KENNEDY. Yes. Mr. ENGLISH. I decline to answer on the ground I may tend to incriminate myself. Mr. KENNEDY. And not being satisfied with the regular profit where you charged 5 cents more per record than your competitors and still were successful in getting people to buy the records, you then started this operation of counterfeiting the records; is that right? Mr. ENGLISH. Will you repeat that again? Mr. KENNEDY. Mr. English, you were not satisfied with pushing people around and getting them to purchase your records for 5 cents more a record, but you were such a big shot that you thought that you would then go ahead and get your records counterfeited so that you could make even more money; is that right? Mr. ENGLISH. I decline to answer on the ground I may tend to incriminate myself. Mr. KENNEDY. And that you moved in and you had your big friends in the labor movement who are dishonest, those who are dishonest like "Jukebox Smitty," and you had your big friends in the underworld push the records for you; is that right? Mr. ENGLISH. I decline to answer on the ground I may tend to incriminate myself. Mr. KENNEDY. And if it became necessary, that you would send somebody else around to have operators beaten up, is that right, if they wouldn't purchase your records? Mr. ENGLISH. I decline to answer on the ground I may tend to incriminate myself. Mr. KENNEDY. It was just an organized shakedown in your behalf, was it not? Mr. ENGLISH. I decline to answer on the ground I may tend to incriminate myself. Mr. KENNEDY. And you were able to do that not because of yourself, Mr. English, it was because of your friends and associates, like Paul "The Waiter" Ricca; is that not right? Mr. ENGLISH. I decline to answer on the ground I may tend to incriminate myself. Mr. KENNEDY. That you have handled according to the information in the possession of the committee, money on behalf of Paul "The Waiter" Ricca, and you were handling it back as far as 1952; is that not right? Mr. ENGLISH. I decline to answer on the ground I may tend to incriminate myself. Mr. KENNEDY. And that when Paul "The Waiter" Ricca sold his farm in 1951 and was supposed to have received an $80,000 second mortgage and there was discussion about repaying the loan, you were to handle the transaction for him? Mr. ENGLISH. I decline to answer on the ground I may tend to incriminate myself. Mr. KENNEDY. And actually when he said he didn't have to pay the loan, you were arranging with these people, this was just a payoff, |