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The CHAIRMAN. Proceed.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you know what happened to the other 75 boxes that were manufactured? You manufactured, I believe, altogether, 100 boxes, according to the testimony of the district attorney. Seventy-five of those boxes are missing. Do you know where they are?

Mr. Shaw. No, sir, I do not.
Mr. ADLERMAN. If you knew, would you tell the committee?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir, I would.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you know who got them from you?
Mr. Shaw. They did not get anything from me, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. What?
Mr. Shaw. Nothing was gotten from me.
The CHAIRMAN. You knew about the boxes being in existence ?
Mr. SHAW. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Whose custody were they last in when you knew about them, when you last knew where they were? I am talking about the 75, not the 4 or 5 that we know about that had been sold or something.

Mr. Shaw. These were in an incompleted stage, No. 1, and they were not in any sense in my custody.

The CHAIRMAN. Ordinarily they were probably in somebody's custody.

Mr. Shaw. Well, they were merely left in the building-period.
That was the last I saw of them.

The CHAIRMAN. They were left in the building?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What happened? Was there a raid and everybody left?

Mr. Shaw. I have no knowledge of that, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. What building were they left in?
Mr. Shaw. They were left at the place where I assembled them.
The CHAIRMAN. Where you assembled them?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. What was the location?
Mr. Shaw. 1401 Stony Brook Avenue.
The CHAIRMAN. What city?
Mr. SHAW. Mamaroneck, N.Y.

The CHAIRMAN. That is where you were working and assembling them, is that correct?

Mr. Shaw. That is correct.
The CHAIRMAN. How much did they lack being finished?
Mr. SHAW. Quite a bit.
The CHAIRMAN. Quite a bit ?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You had bought the material to make 200, had you not?

Mr. Shaw. No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. There was some testimony to that effect here.
Mr. SHAW. I realize that.
The CHAIRMAN. That testimony was in error?
Mr. SHAW. Correct.
The CHAIRMAN. You only bought enough to make 100?

Mr. Shaw. There was others for additional purchases, but not for these.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, there was other equipment purchased, but the equipment was for something else other than the making of these boxes?

Mr. Shaw. That was for additional equipment.
The CHAIRMAN. Additional equipment?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Have we stumbled on what that other equipment was?

Mr. ADLERMAN. I believe he referred to the equipment which the district attorney described as cheese boxes.

Is that correct?
Mr. Shaw. They described it as cheese boxes, which is incorrect.
The CHAIRMAN. What is the technical name for them?
Mr. Shaw. Automatic dialing transfer equipment.
The CHAIRMAN. Automatic dialing transfer equipment !
Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What does the transfer have to do with it? Transfer it around the charge box?

Mr. Shaw. No, sir. This, again, is incorrect.
The CHAIRMAN. Again that is incorrect?
Mr. SHAW. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Would the telephone company know that such a long distance call was being made ?

Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. How?

Mr. Shaw. It is recorded. It is registered. This equipment would not reflect any complete call. The equipment when it was designed would complete the status of a call and merely transfer it to another location automatically.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you call from one telephone and this equipment would transfer it to another?

Mr. Shaw. With this additional equipment, yes, sir.
Mr. ADLERMAN. What?

Mr. Shaw. In other words, a phone call would actually follow you around if you so desired it. This is not cheesebox operation.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the kind where you put it in over here 2 or 3 miles away and if you had another line running it would transfer it to the office downtown or somewhere?

Mr. Shaw. If you were to select or dial in, then with a preconceived tonic arrangement you could preselect a coding number on a recorder which would then automatically file the number where you are now at. This is all done by

The CHAIRMAN. Electronics?

Mr. Shaw. Dial impulses, partially electronics, and also recorder apparatus, so that every call that comes in and goes out is automatically recorded.

Mr. ADLERMAN. This is the further refinement you were going to put on those boxes, is that correct?

Mr. Shaw. This is actually the equipment designed for this purpose, yes.

Mr. ADLERMAN. You were going to add to it and make a new device which would have the automatic dialing?

Mr. Shaw. This is the first stage of testing, to make sure it would actually function.

The CHAIRMAN. What about the box? We are talking about two different things, I think.

Mr. ADLERMAN. No. The boxes that he is talking about are the same boxes which the district attorney described as the cheesebox. You make a call

The CHAIRMAN. He shakes his head. That is why I think we are talking about two different boxes.

Are we?
Mr. Shaw. It is confusion, I believe.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you remember the long box?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, the big box.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you design and call that?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir.
Mr. ADLERMAN. What do you call that?
Mr. SHAW. Automatic dial transfer.
Mr. ADLERMAN. The district attorney called it a cheesebox?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Then you had a smaller box?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Which performed almost the same function?
Mr. Shaw. No, sir. It did not.
Mr. ADLERMAN. What did you call that box, the small one?
Mr. Shaw. That was strictly a coupler.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Attached to one phone?
Mr. Shaw. No, sir.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Two phones?
Mr. Shaw. No, sir.
Mr. ADLERMAN. All right, you tell us what they were.
Mr. Shaw. Radio signal equipment.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Radio signal equipment?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. The district attorney described that as another form of the cheesebox, did he not?

Mr. Shaw. He did; yes, sir.
Mr. ADLERMAN. You made that one?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Then you made the third device which is attached right to the telephone, which we called the parasite, the one where if you dial into that telephone it doesn't register on the meter of the telephone company.

Did you invent that?
Mr. SHAW. Yes, sir.
Mr. ADLERMAN. I think we are square on it.

Have you had any dealings with a Mr. Thomas Lo Presto of New Orleans?

Mr. Shaw. I met Mr. Tom Lo Presto; yes, sir.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Have you ever met Mr. Carlos Marcello?
Mr. Shaw. I beg your pardon.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Have you ever met Mr. Carlos Marcello?
Mr. Shaw. I do not recall the

name; no, sir. Mr. ADLERMAN. Have you met anybody by the name of Marcello in addition to Mr. Lo Presto!

Mr. Shaw. No, sir.

you

Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you try to make some arrangements with Mr. Lo Presto to finance the manufacture of some of this electronic equipment? Mr. Shaw. I did not; no, sir. Mr. ADLERMAN. Who did!

Mr. Shaw. I was introduced to Mr. Thomas J. Lo Presto by Mr. Leo J. Fisk.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Who?
Mr. SHAW. Leo J. Fisk.

Mr. ADLERMAN. At that time, you were dealing with the automaticpardon me

Mr. SHAW. Yes.
Mr. ADLERMAN. With the automatic telephone; is that right?
Mr. SHAW. Correct.

Mr. ADLERMAN. You were not dealing with the cheesebox at that time, what I described as the cheesebox!

Mr. Shaw. No, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Have you had any recent dealings with Mr. Lo Presto?

Mr. Shaw. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. When did you have this conference with Lo Presto? When was the last time talked to him about this matter?

Mr. Shaw. I believe it was 1959.
The CHAIRMAN. 1959 ?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. I would like to ask you just one more question: Would your device, the biggest one of the three, would that accomplish what the district attorney said it would accomplish?

Mr. Shaw. No, sir.
Mr. ADLERMAN. It would not?
Mr. SHAW. Not the way I designed it; no, sir.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Not the way you designed it?
Mr. SHAW. That is correct.

Mr. ADLERMAN. But could it accomplish, the way it was applied, what the district attorney said it would do?

Mr. Shaw. I suppose if qualified engineers with a knowledge of telephone or electronics made some minor modifications, I imagine it could.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you install—by the way, were you ever in Mr. Gianunzio's home?

Mr. Shaw. Now I must go back to counsel's advice and refuse to answer on the grounds it might tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. I won't press you on that.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that where he was supposed to have installed them?

Mr. ADLERMAN. Yes.

Did you install the devices which I call cheeseboxes, which the district attorney calls a cheesebox, the long one, in these houses in Mount Vernon and in New Rochelle ?

Mr. SHAW. No, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. One was concealed in the attic, and the other was concealed behind a radiator in the basement.

Mr. Shaw. No, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you know who installed those ?

Mr. Shaw. Again, I must refuse to answer on the grounds it might tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you install the underground pipe from one house to another where they took the wire and put the telephone underground from one house to another?

Mr. Shaw. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you advise, by reason of your experience with the telephone company, that none of these cheeseboxes—I call them cheeseboxes—the lines should be kept open for no more than 20 minutes because it would then be detected by the telephone company?

Mr. Shaw. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. ADLERMAN. But you knew that fact?

Mr. Shaw. It is common to all telephone men. It is common knowledge.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you know any other telephone men that were working with Mr. Gianunzio on these devices?

Mr. Shaw. I did not know them; no, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you know whether or not there were any other telephone men who worked with Mr. Gianunzio on this?

Mr. Shaw. I do not know; no, sir.
Mr. ADLERMAN. No further questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Have you any questions, Senator?
Senator ERVIN. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chair and the committee have been very lenient with you with respect to permitting you to invoke the fifth amendment after you had possibly waived all right to do so, at least with certain questions that you did answer. You probably opened the door where you would be required to answer some of these other questions.

The reason I am not going to press it is because you are under indictment. I think it would possibly be unfair for us to insist on your answering certain questions while you are under indictment. They might in some way relate to that. For that reason, the Chair has not ordered and directed you to answer certain questions that you have taken the fifth amendment on. We have tried to defer to this situation and make every allowance and be as generous as we could in not pressing you.

Mr. Shaw. I appreciate it.

The CHAIRMAN. We might have, had your attorney been here. We would have depended upon him to take care of you. That is what you hire counsel for. He was not here, and we almost did part of his job for you. You ought not to pay him for that. You tell him he was not here and not to charge you the full fee for the advice because you had to have some help from the committee. He ought not to charge you for that.

Mr. Shaw. Thank you, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further?

Some of the practices you have engaged in I have some information about you that I am not going to use at the moment—some of the practices you have engaged in have led to trouble, don't you think?

Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir.

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