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The CHAIRMAN. You are kind of sorry about that, are you?
Mr. Shaw. One hundred percent.
The CHAIRMAN. One hundred percent sorry about it?
Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir.
(At this point Senator Jackson entered the hearing room.)
The CHAIRMAN. Try to go forth and sin no more.
Mr. Shaw. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Call the next witness.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Albert Tollin.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Tollin, be sworn, please.

You do solemnly swear the evidence you shall give before this Senate subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. TOLLIN. I do.

TESTIMONY OF ALBERT TOLLIN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

HENRY A. WISE, JR.

The CHAIRMAN. State your name, your address, and your business or occupation, please, sir.

Mr. TOLLIN. My name is Albert Tollin. I live at 2919 North Franklin Street, Wilmington, Del. I am partner and general manager, Delaware Sports Service. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. You have counsel present? Mr. TOLLIN. I do, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Counsel, identify yourself for the record.

Mr. WISE. I am Henry A. Wise, Jr., a member of the bar of the State of Delaware and of the bar of the State of New York, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.
All right, Mr. Counsel proceed.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Tollin, are you one of the members—are you one of the partners of the firm of the Delaware Sports Service?

Mr. TOLLIN. I am.
Mr. ADLERMAN. That is a partnership operating under that name?
Mr. TOLLIN. It is.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Is that a successor to a corporation known as Delaware Wired Music, Inc.?

Mr. Tollin. Incorporated; yes, sir. Mr. ADLERMAN. Has this business been in operation since about 1951-52? That is, the business of the Delaware Sports Service, and its predecessor, Delaware Wired Music?

Mr. TOLLIN. It has.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Prior to that, it was part of Continental Press?
Mr. TOLLIN. It never was.
Mr. ALDERMAN. Your father, I believe, was Mr. Joseph Tollin?
Mr. TOLLIN. That is correct.
Mr. ADLERMAN. And he had been employed
Mr. TOLLIN. He had never been.
Mr. ALDERMAN. He had never been?
Mr. TOLLIN. He had never been employed by Continental.

Mr. ALDERMAN. What was his connection with Wired Service before 1951-52 ?

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Mr. ToLLin. None that I know of, except a subscriber to it.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Your father died last year?
Mr. TOLLIN. He did.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Would you describe the premises that you occupy?

Mr. Tollin. It is located at 601 Tatnall Street, Wilmington, Del. It is a three-story building. I use only two of them. The third floor is closed off. On the first floor is one room, with a stairway leading to the second.

the stairway leading to the second is where I have my telephone equipment.

Mr. ADLERMAN. On the second floor, do you have telephone equipment?

Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you have a switchboard?
Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Then you have many handsets ?
Mr. TOLLIN. Yes.

Mr. ADLERMAN. How many lines do you have coming into the building?

Mr. TOLLIN. Would you ask that question again, please, sir?

Mr. ADLERMAN. How many telephone lines do you have coming into that building?

Mr. TOLLIN. Well, if I may elaborate a little on that. I have a 100pair cable coming into the building.

The CHAIRMAN. A hundred what?

Mr. TOLLIN. A 100-pair cable. Of that 100-pair cable, my own personal use,

I use 30, give or take one or two. I believe we counted them when we were there.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you provide the cable yourself?
Mr. TOLLIN. No, sir, the telephone company installed it.

The CHAIRMAN. They provided the cable which has a capacity of accommodating 100 telephone boxes; is that right?

Mr. TOLLIN. One hundred telephones.
The CHAIRMAN. One hundred separate telephones?
Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. When I said boxes, that is not the technical term, but here is a telephone with a box here and a telephone with another one over there. It would accommodate 100 telephones, receiving and transmission sets ?

Mr. TOLLIN. You are getting me confused, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Maybe I am confused. As I understand it, you could hook up 100 separate telephones in that building to that cable?

Mr. TOLLIN. If the telephone company authorized it; yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. That is what I mean. It has that capacity if used ?
Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And you use a capacity of about 30 give or take 2 or 3 either way?

Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, I assume you only pay the telephone company for the capacity you actually use; is that right?

Mr. TOLLIN. Thirty-some phones that I use.
The CHAIRMAN. Now we have it straight.

Mr. ADLERMAN. You have two telephone operators assisting you in

your work?

Mr. TOLLIN. I do. Mr. ADLERMAN. One is at the switchboard? Mr. TOLLIN. Yes. Mr. ADLERMAN. And the other one helps you handle the hand telephones?

Mr. TOLLIN. That is correct.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Would you describe to us the nature of the service that you render!

Mr. TOLLIN. I have available to anyone who is willing to pay the winner, the unofficial winner, of the race at almost any given major racetrack in the country available to buy from me.

The CHAIRMAN. Do I understand by that you provide a service to those who are willing to buy the information ?

Mr. TOLLIN. The winner of the race; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, you provide a service in that you are able to advise them or inform them the winner of most any race at any of the major tracks in the country?

Mr. TOLLIN. That is right, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You provide a service that does that before it goes out over the regular wires ?

Mr. TOLLIN. What are considering regular wires, sir?

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I would consider regular wires the regular broadcast services, news services.

Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir; I do.

The CHAIRMAN. You do it before the regular news services can do it?

Mr. TOLLIN. I do, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, if you couldn't do it before that, there would be very little commodity in your product, would there?

Mr. TOLLIN. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. There would be nothing that anyone needed to buy. That is what they buy, the service that you can provide almost instantaneously immediately after a race is over?

Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You can say unofficially, the minute they flash by that line. You get some word about it and you are able to say to anyone who wants that service, who has bought it and paid for it, who gets it, you are able to say that the winner is Runaway, or something?

Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Or Foldback or Pushup, whatever it is.
Mr. TOLLIN. That is correct, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. And you can do it quickly. That information is of value, is it not, to some people, to some business operations?

Mr. TOLLIN. I imagine so; yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Sir?
Mr. TOLLIN. I imagine so; yes, sir.

. The CHAIRMAN. I imagine so or they would not buy it, particu"larly bookies, taking bets on horseraces. It is worth something to them to have that information quickly, is it not, the minute a race is finished ?

Well, that is the whole idea of the operation, isn't it, to give them that information quickly!

Mr. TOLLIN. Information quickly, but not to bookmakers, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Bookmakers don't buy your information?
Mr. TOLLIN. Not to my knowledge.
The CHAIRMAN. Would you tell us who buys it?
Mr. Tollin. Anyone who is willing to send me the money.
The CHAIRMAN. Sir?

Mr. TOLLIN. Anyone who is willing to send me money to find out the results of the races.

The CHAIRMAN. I thought bookmakers were in the market for that kind of information.

Mr. Tollin. Not at the prices I am charging.
The CHAIRMAN. What do you charge!

Mr. TOLLIN. $20 for one result, $30 for two results, five results for $50 and only five results is the maximum they can get from me.

The CHAIRMAN. Who could be interested in paying those prices unless it is of some value to them?

Senator Ervin. Don't you think that affords you reasonable grounds to believe that persons that would pay such rates as that have a financial interest rather than a mere intellectual interest in the information ?

Mr. TOLLIN. Definitely a financial interest.

Senator ERVIN. Who would have the financial interest other than a person that was engaged in gambling on it?

Mr. TOLLIN. A person that has made a legitimate bet at a track, sir, who is not able to attend the track, a tout. There are various means other than illegal gambling.

Senator Ervin. Do you think his interest would be so great that he could not wait until he heard from the track?

Mr. ToLLin. In some areas, the news media is very much delayed and the anxiety and tension of waiting.

Senator Ervin. At the worst, it would not be delayed more than 24 hours, would it?

Mr. TOLLIN. No, sir.

Senator Ervin. You honestly think that the only people that are purchasing your service are people who have placed legitimate bets at the racetrack where such bets are offered! You honestly state upon your oath that this is the inference you have drawn and the belief you entertain in your mind about the purchasers of your service?

Mr. TOLLIN. To the best of my knowledge, sir; yes.

Senator Ervin. I didn't ask you about your knowledge. I asked you about your belief.

Mr. Tollin. To the best of my belief; yes, sir.

Senator Ervin. So you are honestly of the opinion, and you will swear upon your oath, that in your judgment no person is purchasing your service except people who have had legitimate bets placed on races at the track and who are unable to attend the races, and who are so impatient that they will pay anywhere from $20 to $50 to find out about the results of those races immediately instead of waiting for a period of not more than 24 hours?

Is that your honest opinion and you will swear it is on your oath?
Mr. Tollin. Yes, sir; I would.

The CHAIRMAN. Am I correct when I make this statement, that your services have practically no value except to bookmakers and professional bettors ?

Mr. TOLLIN. Would you restate that question, please?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir; I will repeat it. Am I correct when I state that your services have practically no value except to bookmakers and professional bettors!

Mr. Tollin. I personally am not qualified to state whether professional gamblers could use the service.

The CHAIRMAN. I said professional bettors.

Mr. Tollin. I believe maybe the bettors, yes; to relieve anxiety of waiting. But the professional bookmaker or gambler, no.

The CHAIRMAN. I want you to weigh these words, now. They are not my words, I may say to you.

Is it true, am I correct when I say, and I am quoting, that your services “have practically no value except to bookmakers and professional bettors”? Is that a correct statement?

Mr. TOLLIN. May I talk to counsel, sir?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir; you may seek advice.
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Nr. TOLLIN. Would you please repeat the question, sir?
The CHAIRMAN. I beg your pardon?
Mr. TOLLIN. Would you please repeat the question ?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir; I will repeat it one more time.

Am I correct when I make this statement: that your services "have practically no value except to bookmakers and professional bettors”?

Mr. TOLLIN. Like I said before, Senator, I am not qualified in respect to the bookmaking field, but I am sure that I can honestly state there is a necessity to a professional bettor. But to a bookmaker I can say it is honestly of no value.

The CHAIRMAN. I am using your language, not mine.
Mr. TOLLIN. You are using my father's, Senator.
The CHAIRMAN. I believe you and your father both signed it.
Mr. TOLLIN. I don't believe so.
The CHAIRMAN. You don't think so?

Would you acknowledge your signature? Here is a photostatic copy of it. Obviously the same person did not sign both names. (The document was handed to the witness.)

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. You have examined it. Is that your statement?

Mr. WISE. Senator, may I ask a question to help my client? We have a document here in handwriting, and attached to that is a typed document, which is undersigned.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a copy of it; is it not?
Mr. WISE. I beg your pardon?

The CHAIRMAN. What I presented to the witness, I could detach the other papers. They need not confuse anybody. What I presented to the witness is a photostatic copy of a handwritten statement, apparently signed by two different people, one, Joseph, and the other one, Albert Tollin. I just asked him if that is his signature.

Mr. WISE. Is this your signature?
Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. That is your signature.

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