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Very well. That document may be made-it may be printed in the record at this point.

(The document referred to is as follows:)

I, Joseph Tollin, senior partner of Delaware Sports Service, successor to Delaware Wired Music, Inc., of 601 Tatnall Street, Wilmington, Del., make the following statement:

I have known Rudolph "Big Ralph" Atlas of 1536 Anderson Avenue, Fort Lee, N.J., formerly of Union City, N.J., since approximately 1950. He has been on the corporate and later the partnership payroll since about 1952 starting at $100 and his present salary on the partnership payroll as of Wednesday, April 9, 1958, for the week ending April 12, 1958, was $200 per week for services exclusively performed outside the State of Delaware. In 1949 and 1950 our business was local and interstate. Since 1952 our business is strictly and exclusively interstate.

Ralph Atlas' services including his finding a phone in a room or house near a track where someone could stay and receive from inside the track who would be a "flash artist" and who could send him the correct numbers of the winners. Ralph Atlas would give the telephone number of the place near the track which we could call for the flash result. At the end of the week I would arrange to pay the men for their services and pay direct for the room. This was our operation in New York at the New York tracks. He has arranged the same setups for us in Maryland, New Jersey, Virginia, Florida, New England, and in any parts of the United States where it would be to our advantage-except Delaware. He has been doing this all along for us up to now.

When we opened up we had a Continental News printer until they closed up around 1951 after the Kefauver committee hearings. I heard Ralph Atlas was an arranger for getting flash results from the tracks and we hired him to replace our Continental News facilities.

Our business is to get fast flash results to our customers before the radio and newspaper announcements. We have to do this to survive. Our services have practically no value except to bookmakers and professional bettors. I have read the above. It is correct.

Witness:

(S)
(S)

JOSEPH TOLLIN, Senior Partner.
ALBERT J. TOLLIN, Junior Partner.

(S) THOMAS LAVENIA.
(S)

WALTER J. WASSMER, Delaware State Detective.

The CHAIRMAN. You first said you thought it was your father's statement. Apparently you and your father signed a joint statement to that effect?

Mr. TOLLIN. Senator, it is probably my father's statement, and he told me to sign it, and I signed it without knowing what was on it. The CHAIRMAN. Would you say your father was competent in that field?

Mr. TOLLIN. Very well versed in it; yes, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Pretty well versed in it. Then I would assume that his statement is true, wouldn't you, if you do not want to say it is your statement?

Mr. TOLLIN. We have, at various times, had disagreement in opinions over the services.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not disagree with what your father said. there, do you?

Mr. TOLLIN. I most certainly do.

The CHAIRMAN. You disagree with it?

Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You disagree with your father and yet you signed the statement?

Mr. TOLLIN. I did, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Ervin.

Senator ERVIN. I overlooked asking you a moment ago, how do your customers who make bets at tracks where it is legal and then pay you from $20 to $50 to find out the results of the races on which those bets were placed-how do they place their bets at the track?

Mr. TOLLIN. I couldn't answer that, Senator.

Senator ERVIN. How do you think? Since you have firmly sworn upon your oath that it is your honest belief that that is what they do, don't you have any belief as to how they accomplish what you honestly believe they accomplish?

Mr. TOLLIN. I could give you an assumption on that fact; yes, Senator. I could assume something on that fact, if you would like to hear my assumption.

Senator ERVIN. Yes, I would like to hear your assumption.

Mr. TOLLIN. It is a question of a man being in the State of Delaware-if a man is in the State of Delaware and he wants to bet on a horse at a New York racetrack, I ask you honestly, sir, do you know anyone in the State of New York?

Senator ERVIN. I am not the witness. I am putting the questions on you. I am asking you.

Mr. TOLLIN. I am trying to explain, Senator.

Senator ERVIN. No. You are asking me a question.

Mr. TOLLIN. I have to ask the question.

Senator ERVIN. No, you don't. You can tell me what your assumption is.

Mr. TOLLIN. I assume the person making the bet at the track knows someone personally who will go to the track and place the bet for him. Senator ERVIN. That is what I wondered. The person who went to the track and placed the bet could probably call him from New York to Delaware and tell him the results of the race by long-distance telephone at a cost of not more than a dollar, could he not?

Mr. TOLLIN. No if he left the telephone where he was at.

Senator ERVIN. No, but suppose he went to the telephone, even if he left it. Don't you know that if you placed a bet through the agency of another person, that after the race the other person could call him on the long-distance telephone and give him the information that he needs and desires at a cost of a dollar or not more than that, or some trivial amount, instead of paying you anywhere from $20 to $50 for that information?

Mr. TOLLIN. It is possible, Senator, but evidently there are some who do not.

Senator ERVIN. In other words, you are convinced that the only customers you have are people who are financial asses? Is that your honest conviction?

Mr. TOLLIN. Well, Senator; evidently they must be, if you say so. Senator ERVIN. I would think they were, if your assumption was correct. But I do not believe there are that many financial asses engaged in betting.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Tollin, you are engaged in giving flash results, is that corrrect?

Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. And you obtain this information from the racetrack, which we will go into in a little while, and you then give your customers the winner of each race?

Mr. TOLLIN. The winner only. No mutuels, no off time, no mutuels. Mr. ADLERMAN. Going back to the description of your premises, you have a telephone switchboard?

Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. How many keys do you have on that?

Mr. TOLLIN. Fifteen.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Then you have about 16 or 17 hand telephones? Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you have a box which is about 6 to 7 inches high, and about 3 feet square on the table?

Mr. TOLLIN. I have two separate boxes.

Mr. ADLERMAN. You have two separate boxes?

Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. How big are those boxes?

Mr. TOLLIN. About a foot or foot and a half.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Together, they are about 3 feet?

Mr. TOLLIN. Well, yes.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Are they covered with foam rubber around the top? Mr. TOLLIN. Around the top of them; yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Underneath them they have a chicken wire netting or screen?

Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Underneath that do they have an amplifier or a loudspeaker?

Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. And as you get the telephone calls from your customers, do you ask them to hold the line and then do you put the speaking device on top of the foam rubber edge of the boxes so that the speaking device is facing the loudspeaker inside the box?

Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. And you have, maybe, 10 on one and 5 or 6 on the other, is that correct?

Mr. TOLLIN. If I have them full up; yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. You call up, then, whoever is giving you the advice as to the winner of the race, is that right?

Mr. TOLLIN. Just shout it out; yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. And they tell you "They are off," is that right? Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. And you shout into the box or the microphone or telephone

Mr. TOLLIN. No, sir, I just shout out. Everyone in the room can hear it.

Mr. ADLERMAN. You shout out "They are off"; is that right?
Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. And then you wait for a minute or so, or whatever the race time is, and then you announce, "The winner, No. 9," or something of that sort?

Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Or do you mention the name of the winner by name?

Mr. TOLLIN. I give the name and the number, the post position, name, and number.

Mr. ADLERMAN. You do not give the parimutuel payoffs on the races, you don't tell how much was bet on the race

Mr. TOLLIN. Pardon?

Mr. ADLERMAN. You don't tell what the payment of the bet is on the race, you don't give the betting information?

Mr. TOLLIN. No, I don't give the parimutuels.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you understand what I just said? You do not give the betting information.

Mr. TOLLIN. You mean the mutuels?

Mr. ADLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. TOLLIN. No, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. You don't tell how much each horse won?

Mr. TOLLIN. No, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. And you don't give the second winner and you don't give the third winner?

Mr. TOLLIN. No, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. You just give the one winner of the race?

Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Is this what you call a past-post betting operation? Let's be frank about it. There is no point quibbling about it. The CHAIRMAN. It is called what?

Mr. ADLERMAN. Past-post betting operation.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean to give opportunity to bet after the race is already won?

Mr. ADLERMAN. That is right, to beat the bookmaker or to allow the bookmaker to beat the bettor.

Mr. TOLLIN. No, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Let's not quibble. You know that is the fact. You admitted it to us. There is no reason why you should not admit it

now.

Mr. TOLLIN. It could possibly be used for that, but it has not exelusively been used for that, sir.

Mr. ÅDLERMAN. Is there any question in your mind that it is for any possible other use?

Mr. TOLLIN. I just previously stated what it was used for.

Mr. ADLERMAN. What other use could it be put to?

Mr. TOLLIN. To relieve the anxiety of anyone making a legitimate bet at the track, the use of a tout to tell his customers before it goes over the so-called legitimate news media.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you mean to say the man is going to pay you $50 to get the results of a few races as to whether or not he won or lost?

Mr. TOLLIN. As hard as it may be for you to believe; yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. I would like to go over this statement with you for a moment. This is in relation, I believe, to an investigation that was conducted at a time when Mr. Ralph Atlas, Rudolph Atlas, and a corporation known as Sports News Service, Inc., was making an application in Washington, D.C., for telephone lines to be used in a horserace service. Is that right? That is, if you know.

Mr. TOLLIN. Would you ask the question again, sir?

Mr. ADLERMAN. What was that?

Mr. TOLLIN. Would you ask that question again, please?

Mr. ADLERMAN. I say, did you sign this statement, which was exhibited to you a little while ago, in connection with an investigation that was made on an application for an outfit called Sports News

Service, Inc., before the Public Utilities Commission in Washington, D.C., for telephone lines?

Mr. TOLLIN. That is my signature on that, yes, sir; but I don't remember actually signing it.

Mr. ADLERMAN. This paper that has your signature on it, it was in connection with that investigation; isn't that so? Yes or No? Mr. TOLLIN. I believe so; yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. At that time, Mr. Atlas was making an application for telephone lines through a corporation in Washington, D.C., is that correct?

Mr. TOLLIN. I am not familiar with any of this, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Did you attend those hearings?

Mr. TOLLIN. No, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Did your father attend those hearings?
Mr. TOLLIN. I believe he did; yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Did your father testify in those hearings?

Mr. TOLLIN. I believe he did; yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. This affidavit was obtained by an investigator, together with Mr. Walter Wassmer, is that right? It is not an affidavit. It is a statement, an unsworn statement; is that correct? Did Mr. Wassmer come up to your house and see you and your father?

Mr. TOLLIN. He came up to the house, I believe, Mr. Adlerman. The CHAIRMAN. The statement has been placed in the record. You can quote from it.

Mr. ADLERMAN. I asked you before whether or not this company of yours or the predecessor company had been connected with Continental and you said "No"; is that correct?

Mr. TOLLIN. I believe you asked me if my father had been. I told you he was a subscriber to that service.

Mr. ADLERMAN. I will then read to you one paragraph from the statement:

When we opened up, we had a Continental News printer until they closed around 1951.

Is that correct?

Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. So your statement before that you had no connection with the Continental was not quite true?

Mr. TOLLIN. I stated, sir, that I was a subscriber to his service.
Mr. ADLERMAN. And the statement further states-

I heard Ralph Atlas was an arranger for getting flash results from the tracks and we hired him to replace our Continental News facilities.

Is that a correct statement?

Mr. TOLLIN. To the best of my knowledge; yes,

Mr. ADLERMAN (reading):

sir.

Our business is to get fast flash results to our customers before the radio and newspaper announcements.

Is that right?

Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. ADLERMAN (reading):

We have to do this to survive.

Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Is that correct?

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