Mr. TOLLIN. If anyone in particular, I was notified, was using it for that purpose, I would discontinue service to him. If all of my customers were using it, I would close down. The CHAIRMAN. I am not going to spend all of the time of the committee tracing down all of your patrons, all of your customers. Senator JACKSON. I was going to ask him if half of them were using it to cheat, would he just close down half of his business. Mr. TOLLIN. I would discontinue service to half of my customers. Senator JACKSON. What if all but one of them were cheating, using it to cheat. What would you do then? Mr. TOLLIN. Therefore, there would be no financial value to me to operate for one particular man. I would close down. Senator JACKSON. Mr. Chairman, I have one or two questions. Senator JACKSON. How do you get business, Mr. Tollin? What do you do to promote business? How do you get it? Mr. TOLLIN. Nothing. Senator JACKSON. Pardon me? Mr. TOLLIN. I do nothing, advertise or none of that sort. Mr. TOLLIN. No, sir. Senator JACKSON. How do they find out about you? How do you get the business? Mr. TOLLIN. I am getting quite a bit of publicity right now. Senator JACKSON. Before this particular event, how did you get your business? Mr. TOLLIN. I have had similar events. Senator JACKSON. Do you mean various investigating committees are serving as your advertising agency? Mr. TOLLIN. If you care to say it that way; yes, sir. Senator JACKSON. Were you in business before you were investigated? to. Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir. Senator JACKSON. How did you promote your business? Mr. TOLLIN. Strictly by word of mouth. Senator JACKSON. Just by word of mouth? Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir. Senator JACKSON. You don't carry on any promotional work? Mr. TOLLIN. None at all. Senator JACKSON. Do you have a list of your clients or customers? Mr. TOLLIN. Future clients? Senator JACKSON. No, the ones that you are providing the service Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, I have a list. They send their money in by Western Union telegrams, sir. Senator JACKSON. Do they sign their names? Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir. Senator JACKSON. Do you send Christmas cards out to them? Senator JACKSON. You don't have to do any promotional work of any kind? Mr. TOLLIN. None at all. Senator JACKSON. Do you have any idea what the background of these people is? Mr. TOLLIN. None at all, sir. Senator JACKSON. You don't know what they do? Mr. TOLLIN. No, sir. Senator JACKSON. Have you ever taken the trouble to check on their backgrounds or to find out where they are from? Mr. TOLLIN. The only thing I am interested in is, if their money is in advance, they subscribe to my service. If their money is not there, they do not get my service. Senator JACKSON. But do they sign their true name? Senator JACKSON. Do they sign unusual names? Mr. TOLLIN. Some of them are unusual; yes, sir. Senator JACKSON. Some of them are unusual. Do you get suspicious? Mr. TOLLIN. I have no reason for suspicions. Their money is in advance. Senator JACKSON. You mean as long as the money is there, you have no suspicion as to their background, regardless of the way they sign their name on the telegram. What are some of the unusual names? Certainly you remember. You remember some of them. Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Tierney, would you take the stand? Senator JACKSON. Before he testifies, you are not suspicious about of these names? any Mr. TOLLIN. I have various clients. Suspicious of what? Senator JACKSON. Of their background. If a person won't sign a true name, do you get suspicious? Mr. TOLLIN. I cannot say it isn't actually a true name. As I said before, some of them are unusual. I have one particular client that calls himself by the name of Aly Khan. Senator JACKSON. Do you have one named August Moon? Mr. TOLLIN. I couldn't honestly remember if I do or I don't. TESTIMONY OF PAUL J. TIERNEY-Resumed The CHAIRMAN. You have been sworn previously, Mr. Tierney. Mr. TIERNEY. I have. Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Tierney, have you in front of you a list which purports to be a list of names of subscribers or signators on money orders which were sent to the Delaware Sports Service? Mr. TIERNEY. I have. Mr. ADLERMAN. How many pages would you say that list is? Mr. ADLERMAN. Over what period of time? The CHAIRMAN. How many names to a page? Mr. TIERNEY. It varies, Mr. Chairman. I have not made a total. On some pages you have, for example I will read, from page 1. First of all, let me say this is a list of telegrams, money orders, which were sent to the Delaware Sports News, as obtained by the New York Commission on Investigation, and they list-it was for a period of time of December 1958, through February 1959. The CHAIRMAN. December 1958, through February 1959; 2 months? 75477-61-pt. 2-3 Mr. TIERNEY. Three months. The CHAIRMAN. They list what? Mr. TIERNEY. They list the telegrams. They list the time the telegrams were sent, the date they were sent, the time they were received in Wilmington, the amount paid, and the sender's name. Mr. ADLERMAN. Are some of those names nicknames, like "Mike of Brooklyn," something of that sort? Mr. TIERNEY. Yes; they are. Mr. ADLERMAN. And some are names which appear to be, on their face, true names or legitimate names? Mr. TIERNEY. That is correct. Some appear to be true names; we cannot be sure. You have here, for example, Nick Levine, or Bill Mangin. In other cases, they are a little more suspicious: Dot, or Charlie I. In other cases there is no identifying data. The CHAIRMAN. This entire list may be made exhibit No. 27 for reference. (The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 27" for reference and may be found in the files of the subcommittee.) Mr. TIERNEY. In other cases, there are telegrams signed, for example, by Bigg, others signed by Jo-Jo. Here is one, Joe Brown. In those instances, unless we checked all these through, there is no way of telling whether or not they are actual names. TESTIMONY OF ALBERT TOLLIN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, HENRY A. WISE, JR.-Resumed Mr. ADLERMAN. May I ask you a question, Mr. Tollin? Do you know any of these people personally? Mr. TOLLIN. Not to my knowledge; no, sir. Mr. ADLERMAN. Have you met any of these people? (The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. TOLLIN. One or two; yes. The CHAIRMAN. Sir? Mr. TOLLIN. One or two of them; yes. The CHAIRMAN. You know one or two of them personally? Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir. Mr. ADLERMAN. Have any of them indicated to you that they were bookmakers? Mr. TOLLIN. No, sir. Mr. ADLERMAN. None that you have ever met are bookmakers? Mr. TOLLIN. No, sir. Mr. ADLERMAN. Have you heard from them on the telephone or have you ever had any indication when they spoke to you on the telephone that they were bookmakers? Mr. TOLLIN. Not to my knowledge, sir. Mr. ADLERMAN. In other words, then, the only other possible reason would be, as you say, they are very anxious to find out whether or not they won or lost, or that they were past-post betting a bookmaker, is that correct? Have you correctly spoken to somebody on the telephone, like Jo-Jo, and never asked their last name? Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir. Mr. ADLERMAN. You are not interested who they are? Mr. ADLERMAN. As long as they pay in advance Mr. TOLLIN. I do not have to know. Why do I have to? Mr. ADLERMAN. You do not care whether they are bookmakers or anybody else? Mr. TOLLIN. They have never given me an indication that they were. Mr. ADLERMAN. You do not care who they are, as long as they give you the money? Mr. TOLLIN. As long as they are not using my service for an illegitimate service, they can subscribe to my service. Mr. ADLERMAN. That is for the record. Actually, you do not care who they are, as long as they give you the money for it? Mr. TOLLIN. As long as they are not using my service for an illegitimate purpose; yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Do you concede it is a legitimate purpose, if a man gets it and goes to a bookmaker who has not yet learned the outcome of the race and bets with that bookmaker? Do you think that is a legitimate use of the information you give? Mr. TOLLIN. Senator, I am not that well versed (The witness conferred with his counsel.) The CHAIRMAN. You are not that well versed between right and wrong, is that what you are saying? Don't you know it would be wrong? Mr. TOLLIN. Would you please repeat the question? The CHAIRMAN. I will repeat it. A man gets your service. He goes over to the bookmaker who does not have your service and who does not know the race is over and does not know which horse won. He places a bet on the horse that won, knowing it won, and the bookmaker not knowing that the race was over or that the horse won. Do you think that is a legitimate transaction? Mr. TOLLIN. No, sir. The CHAIRMAN. I did not think you would. If that kind of service is going on, then, you are providing a service that is being used to help and to aid in defrauding somebody, are you not? Mr. TOLLIN. If it is being used that way; yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Very well. Proceed. Senator JACKSON. Mr. Chairman ? The CHAIRMAN. Senator Jackson. Senator JACKSON. You have quite a few employees in your business. You have a number of employees. Mr. TOLLIN. In what respect are you saying number? Senator JACKSON. Not the numbers racket. I am talking about you have a number of employees. Do you or don't you? Mr. TOLLIN. No, sir. Senator JACKSON. You do not have any employees? Senator JACKSON. I said a number of employees. Mr. TOLLIN. Not that many, even. Senator JACKSON. In the course of your business operation, have any of them discussed with you or have they ever asked or has there been any discussion of any kind that some of these customers might be bookmakers? Has that ever come up in your business? Mr. TOLLIN. They are employees of mine. No, sir. Senator JACKSON. I said people in your business, have they mentioned to you, "Are these people bookmakers?" Mr. WISE. I did not understand the Senator's question. Mr. TOLLIN. Would you please Senator JACKSON. Are you the only one in the firm? Do you have anyone employed by you or employed as an independent contractor? Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir. Senator JACKSON. You do have? Mr. TOLLIN. Yes, sir. Senator JACKSON. Do they ever ask questions about the nature of this business? Mr. TOLLIN. No, sir. Senator JACKSON. They do not ask any questions? Mr. TOLLIN. No, sir. Senator JACKSON. Do they know what kind of business you are engaged in? Mr. TOLLIN. I believe so; yes, sir. Senator JACKSON. At any time, have any of them ever raised a question, "Are you providing service to bookmakers?” Mr. TOLLIN. Not directly that question; no, sir. Senator JACKSON. You mean no discussion ever occurred in your location in Wilmington, Del.? No one ever raised it? Mr. TOLLIN. I am not understanding the question, probably. Senator JACKSON. Look, how many people are in your particular establishment? How many individuals? Mr. TOLLIN. Myself and two clerks. Senator JACKSON. That is all? Mr. TOLLIN. That is while I am working inside; yes, sir. Senator JACKSON. Inside? All right. Have those clerks ever asked any questions about the nature of your business? Mr. TOLLIN. They have asked if it is illegitimate and I have said "No." It has been declared so by courts in the State of Delaware, not to be illegitimate. Senator JACKSON. Have any of them asked whether the people calling in and sending the money by telegram engaged in bookmaking? Mr. TOLLIN. They may have asked; yes. Senator JACKSON. What have you told them? Mr. TOLLIN. Not to my knowledge. Senator JACKSON. I say, what do you tell them when they ask? Mr. TOLLIN. Not to my knowledge that they are engaged in bookmaking. Senator JACKSON. You say not to your knowledge. Have they questioned it, some of them? Mr. TOLLIN. You are speaking of my clerks? Senator JACKSON. Yes. People right in the establishment. Do you sit around there all day, year in and year out, and they do not know or they never ask a question as to the nature of the business? Is that what you are trying to tell the committee today? Mr. TOLLIN. No; I say they do ask what the nature of my business is. They know what they are doing. That is what they are getting paid for. Senator JACKSON. Do they know who the customers are? |