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Mr. ESTRIN. I don't know.

The CHAIRMAN. I have heard of this catching and pitching, and I thought for the record we ought to show that the one we speak of as the pitcher is the one who gets the information at the track.

Mr. ESTRIN. The way I understand it, the pitcher is the person in the track and the catcher is the one outside the track.

The CHAIRMAN. The one inside the track where he can see the result, get it, and pass that information on in some way to somebody outside the track?

Mr. ESTRIN. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Will you tell us what tracks you generally work? Perhaps I can make it a little faster. Do you work Monmouth, Atlantic City, Pimlico, Laurel, Charles Town, Garden State, and Bowie tracks?

Mr. ESTRIN. Bowie and Garden State just once at each track.
Mr. ADLERMAN. You have worked all of those tracks?
Mr. EsTRIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. But Bowie and Garden State you work rarely, is that it ?

Mr. ESTRIN. That is right.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you usually obtain a room close to the track, a place where you can either overhear the loudspeaker or a place where you can use binoculars to see the race results?

Mr. ESTRIN. That is right.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Or the tote board or the finish line?
Mr. ESTRIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Are you usually the man who is the pitcher or the catcher?

Mr. ESTRIN. I was the pitcher, and then I was asked to leave the racetrack, and then I became a catcher.

Mr. ADLERMAN. You are on the barred list, too, aren't you?
Mr. ESTRIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. You are not allowed to enter a racetrack if you are spotted ?

Mr. ESTRIN. No, sir.

Mr. ADLERMAN. So the result is you have now changed your baseball position to a catcher?

Mr. ESTRIN. A catcher.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Who do you work with!
Mr. ESTRIN. Lucille Rice.
Mr. ADLERMAN. The lady sitting alongside you?
Mr. ÉSTRIN. That is right.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Lucille Lorraine Rice, is that correct?
Mr. ESTRIN. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you kind of a freelance reporter, or are your
services engaged by somebody specifically?
Mr. ESTRIN. I only service Wilmington, Del.
The CHAIRMAN. Only service whom?
Mr. ESTRIN. Mr. Tollin, Wilmington, Del. The Delaware Sports.
The CHAIRMAN. You only service him?
Mr. ESTRIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. So you are more or less on a retained basis or an exclusive basis?

you?

Mr. ESTRIN. That is right.
The CHAIRMAN. Is that a contract service?
Mr. ESTRIN. Well, I
The CHAIRMAN. Is it salary?

Mr. ESTRIN. It is mostly salary. I have never put anything in writing as a contract.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you pay social security tax? Is that paid on
Mr. ESTRIN. I am self-employed.
The CHAIRMAN. You are self-employed?
Mr. ESTRIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Then you would be kind of an independent contractor. That is the status you are trying to keep?

Mr. ESTRIN. Independent contractor.
The CHAIRMAN. Very well.
Mr. ADLERMAN. How much do you get from Mr. Tollin?
Mr. ESTRIN. $25 a day.
Mr. ADLERMAN. How much!
Mr. ESTRIN. $25 a day.
Mr. ADLERMAN. And you work how many days a week?
Mr. ESTRIN. Six.
Mr. ADLERMAN. In other words, you get $150 a week?
Mr. ESTRIN. That is right.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Suppose it rains one day and they don't have a race, or for some reason or other they don't have a race. You don't get paid for that day?

Mr. ESTRIN. If I am there on the scene, I get paid.
The CHAIRMAN. You are about always there, are you not?
Mr. ESTRIN. All the time.
Mr. ADLERMAN. You are not paid by check, are you?
Mr. ESTRIN. Western Union money order.
Mr. ADLERMAN. Western Union money order?
Mr. ESTRIN. Yes.

Mr. ADLERMAN. And you work how many months a year! Just approximately? Mr. ESTRIN. About 8, 8 to 812.

Mr. ADLERMAN. What do you do? What is your job? If you were inside the track, what would you do?

Mr. ESTRIN. If I am inside the track and we can't hear it, we flash it out.

Mr. ADLERMAN. How do you flash it?
Mr. ESTRIN. Signals.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Would you demonstrate some of the signals you use?

Mr. ESTRIN. Well, one hand on the head is 7.
The CHAIRMAN. A 7?
Mr. ESTRIN. Yes, sir. Two hands on the head is 8.
The CHAIRMAN. Two hands on the head is 8?
Mr. ESTRIN. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, you have different signals.
Mr. ESTRIN. Yes, sir; up to 12.

The CHAIRMAN. What do you do with the 13th horse! You just let him run?

Mr. ESTRIN. There isn't any.
The CHAIRMAN. Sir?
Mr. ESTRIN. There is no 13th horse in the race.
The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. ADLERMAN. At most of the tracks you try to get so close that you can hear the loudspeaker announcement, is that right?

Mr. ESTRIN. Right now I think there are four tracks we can hear from.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you sometimes have any difficulty hearing!

Mr. ESTRIN. When the wind changes to the north, sometimes, or south.

The CHAIRMAN. When the wind changes?
Mr. ESTRIN. Then we have to flash it out.
The CHAIRMAN. Sir?
Mr. ESTRIN. Then we have to flash it out.
The CHAIRMAN. What do you mean flash it out?
Mr. ESTRIN. Then I have to become a pitcher.

"he CHAIRMAN. That is when you give that signal? Mr. ESTRIN. That is right.

Mr. ADLERMAN. In other words, if the wind is blowing in the wrong direction, then you have to have somebody flash out the results of the track, either you or Miss Rice or somebody else?

Mr. ESTRIN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You have been in this business a good while. Let me ask you: What is the advantage of getting this out so fast?

Mr. ESTRIN. What is the advantage ?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. It is going out over the wires ultimately anyhow. It will be in the newspapers.

Mr. ESTRIN. My opinion?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, your opinion.

Mr. ESTRIN. In my opinion it would be past posters, probably, touts.

The CHAIRMAN. Past posters? What is a past poster?

Mr. ESTRIN. Somebody that gets the information before the bookmaker, probably.

The CHAIRMAN. So you can bet with the bookmaker!
Mr. ESTRIN. I presume so.
The CHAIRMAN. That is the real purpose of it, one of the main
Mr. ESTRIN. That is my opinion.

The CHAIRMAN. That is your opinion. Well, you are kind of experienced. I mean, you are experienced; you have been working at it a long time?

Mr. ESTRIN. Nine years.
The CHAIRMAN. Sir?
Mr. ESTRIN. Nine

years. The CHAIRMAN. Well, you have 9 years' experience, whatever that is worth. What is the other purpose of it?

Mr. ESTRIN. Touts.

The CHAIRMAN. What is a tout? Let's get that straight for the record.

Mr. ESTRIN. Well, they have touts, people that tout on horses and want the result right after.

The CHAIRMAN. Do what?

purposes of it?

Mr. ESTRIN. People that tout horses and want the results right after,

The CHAIRMAN. People who recommend horses, they want the result quickly? Mr. ESTRIN. That is in a nice way; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what you call a tout, somebody who recommends that you bet on this horse or another one ?

Mr. ESTRIN. That is right.
The CHAIRMAN. Do they charge for their touting?
Mr. ESTRIN. I imagine so. They advertise it.

The CHAIRMAN. They get a little percentage of something?
Mr. ESTRIN. Probably.

The CHAIRMAN. It helps them. In what way does it help them! They have already made their recommendation. Or do they make it after they get the information?

Mr. ESTRIN. They probably want to know and then probably tout another horse in another race.

The CHAIRMAN. It serves also to take advantage of the bookmaker?

Mr. EsTRIN. When it comes to bookmaking, in my opinion I don't think they can use it.

The CHAIRMAN. A bookmaker cannot use it?

Mr. ESTRIN. I don't think they can use it. I mean, they can use it but they can't benefit by it.

The CHAIRMAN. They can't benefit by it?
Mr. ESTRIN. That is my opinion.

The CHAIRMAN. They can stop from taking bets on any horse, can they not?

Mr. ESTRIN. Well, that I don't know.

The CHAIRMAN. That is a reason. Here is a race just won, and I am a bookmaker, I assume, and I get that information, horse No. 7 wins. They have gotten a signal from you and flashed it to me and I know that 7 won. Here comes somebody in and says, “I believe I want to bet today.” He looks them over and bets on No. 7. I don't take it because I know. Yet the public doesn't know. Isn't that right?

Mr. ESTRIN. That is right.
The CHAIRMAN. Well, that is a pretext to him.

Mr. ESTRIN. Yes, but I don't think they would pay that much to get that kind of information.

Senator ERVIN. But he would also use it in reverse, could he not ? If horse No. 7 won and a fellow came in and said, “I want to bet on horse No. 6,” he would know it was wise to take that bet.

Mr. ESTRIN. Well, there are a lot of ways of looking at it, but you are asking me my opinion.

Senator ERVIN. Whoever had advance knowledge could take advantage of somebody on it, could they not? In other words, the man receiving the bets, if he got advance knowledge, he could take bets from people who didn't have advance knowledge on horses that already had lost, could he not?

Mr. ESTRIN. He probably could. (At this point Senator Curtis entered the hearing room.) Senator ERVIN. And if a bettor got advance knowledge and the other man didn't have it, he could bet on a horse that already had won.

Mr. ESTRIN. That is one way of looking at it.

Senator ERVIN. You look at it on either side of the fence. It depends on who has the advantage.

Mr. ESTRIN. Well, I don't know, Senator, because I am no bookmaker.

Senator ERVIN. But you are giving us your opinion.

Mr. ESTRIN. I am telling you my opinion, that a bookmaker can't use it because he only has the winning horse.

Senator ERVIN. You do know this, that this relaying of this information rapidly is not done for the spiritual advancement of the universe, don't you?

Mr. ESTRIN. No, sir. But I say if a bettor, say, is betting $500 on a horse, I don't think he would like to wait too long to find out what the horse did.

Senator ERVIN. In other words, you are intimating that on occasions it would be used for a less dishonest person than some purposes it would be susceptible of being devoted to?

Mr. ESTRIN. There is always different ways of looking at things, Senator.

Senator ERVIN. That is right.

Senator CURTIS. I would like to ask a question. In your opinion, how could somebody use this quick information to their financial advantage ?

Mr. ESTRIN. Well, say I bet $1,000 on a horse, Senator, and I just want to find out what this horse did. I would probably pay the $20 to find out because another $20 isn't going to bother me if I bet $1,000 on a horse.

Senator CURTIS. How far apart are these races held in time? How much time elapses between one race and another?

Mr. ESTRIN. Sometimes from 30 minutes. At most of the major tracks it is 30 minutes.

Senator CURTIS. He could get it through the Armstrong service in 15 minutes, could he not?

Mr. ESTRIN. About, I would say—I have heard them come on the radio 8 minutes after the race, with the winners, the first, second, and third horse, and the mutuels.

Senator CURTIS. Where is that?

Mr. ESTRIN. Well, I have a list right here, if you want me to tell you.

Senator CURTIS. Yes.
Mr. ESTRIN. Not all these stations come out in 8 minutes, but there

I have here Allentown, WHOL, 1600 on the dial; Asbury Park, WJLK, 1310 on the dial; Atlantic City, WFPG, dial 1490; Philadelphia-Camden, WDKM, 800 on the dial; Trenton, WTTM, on the dial 920; and Vineland, WWBZ, dial 1360. I have HamptonAllentown, Pa.; Trenton, Camden. They give this right on the program at the racetrack program.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Estrin, I asked you to supply us with a list of the radio stations that you knew were giving out the race results?

Mr. ESTRIN. It is right here, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. That list may be printed in the record at this point.

are some.

1 After these hearings had been concluded, the chairman received a letter from Mr. Everett Rudloff, manager of station WJLK, concerning that station's broadcast of race results. By direction of the chairman, the letter has been made a part of the record of the hearings and may be found on page 597.

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