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Do you and each of you solemnly swear the evidence you shall give before this Senate subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MARCELLO. I do.
Mr. PORETTO. I do.

TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH A. PORETTO, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

DAVID J. CARLINER; AND JOSEPH MARCELLO, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, JACK WASSERMAN

The CHAIRMAN. The witness on my left, will you identify yourself for the record by stating your name, your place of residence, and your business or occupation, please, sir?

Mr. PORETTO. My name is Joe Poretto.
The CHAIRMAN. P-0-r-e-t-t-o?
Mr. PORETTO. Correct you are.
The CHAIRMAN. Where do you live, Mr. Poretto?
Mr. PORETTO. New Orleans, La.
The CHAIRMAN. Will you give your street address?
Mr. PORETTO. 515 Robert E. Lee Boulevard.
The CHAIRMAN. What is your business or occupation, please ?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the grounds that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a lawyer?
Mr. PORETTO. Yes, I have.
The CHAIRMAN. Which one is your lawyer?
Will you identify yourself for the record, please ?

Mr. ČARLINER. My name is David J. Carliner, 902 Warner Building, Washington, D.C. I am a member of the bar of the District of Columbia.

The CHAIRMAN. Counsel, will you identify yourself?
Wait a moment.
What is your name, please?
Mr. MARCELLO. Joseph Marcello.
The CHAIRMAN. And where do you live, Mr. Marcello!
Mr. MARCELLO. 2928 Clifford Drive, Metairie.
The CHAIRMAN. Is that Louisiana?
Mr. MARCELLO. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. What is your business or occupation, please ?

Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer the question on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.
You represent Mr. Marcello, do you!

Mr. WASSERMAN. I do, Senator. Jack Wasserman, Warner Building, Washington, D.C.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Counsel, you may proceed to interrogate these witnesses.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Poretto, did you ever work for the old Continental Wire ?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Have you been in the wire service since the day Annenberg ran the wire services ?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Have you been associated with Carlos Marcello for the past 12 years in a race wire service?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Are you originally from Chicago ?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Are you the main manager of the Nola Printing Co. and its race wire service?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Do you run a race wire service in the Nola Printing Co.; that is, giving the results of horse races?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Are you responsible for that private wire running from your headquarters at Nola both ways, the 2 miles in each direction?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Were you assessed a penalty on failure to pay the 8-percent tax for giving information over a wire?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the grounds that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. That was in a partnership, I mean. I don't mean you personally, but as a partner.

The CHAIRMAN. Who is he in partnership with? Ask him that.

Mr. ADLERMAN. The other members of your partnership are Joseph Poretto—you are Joseph Poretto-Anthony Carollo, Ralph Emery and Joseph Marcello, and at one time, Joseph Pecoraro, who is now deceased. Were they your partners?

Mr. PORETTO. Are you through with the question ?
Mr. ADLERMAN. Yes.

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the ground that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. I believe as these witnesses identified themselves— you are Joe Poretto and you are Joseph Marcello; is that correct?

Mr. MARCELLO. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Is that right?
Mr. PORETTO. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Did you recognize each other?
Mr. PORETTO. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. You do recognize each other. Are you partners?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you mean if you told what you know about him, it might tend to incriminate you?

Mr. PORETTO. It might.

The CHAIRMAN. I can well conceive that you may be correct. I just wanted to get the record straight.

Could you reciprocate that courtesy to him that he has just extended to you, Mr. Marcello?

Mr. MARCELLO. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. You would say if you told what you knew about him, it might incriminate you; is that what you are saying?

Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer that question on the ground it may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. It probably does, if that is what you say.
Very well. Proceed.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Poretto, did you go to Hot Springs in March 1960 ?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the grounds that the answer might tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you going to ask him about Hot Springs?
You have been to Hot Springs, haven't you?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. Why? What did you go up there for?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know Owney Madden?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. Didn't he treat you courteously while you were there?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer on the grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. Or did you have a disagreement?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer on the grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. In fact, you did have, didn't you?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer on the grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. He wouldn't be pushed around so easily, would he ? He wouldn't give up his vested interests in the wire services there in Hot Springs; isn't that true?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer on the grounds that the answer may

tend to incriminate me. The CHAIRMAN. You tried to get it away from him, didn't you, the wire services ?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer on the grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. It wouldn't incriminate you, would it, to operate a bookie or provide a little service for a bookie, would its

Mr. PORETTO. It might.
The CHAIRMAN. Why? Why?

Mr. PORETTO. Because I decline to answer on the grounds that it may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. I thought you would be glad to tell us why. I wouldn't know. It might be very informative, it might be very instructive, enlightening, to know why, if operating a bookie is legal, it might incriminate you to say so.

Do you recall whether Mr. Madden had to call for help from Chicago, from some sources up there, before he could get you to lay off? Do you recall about that?

you?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer on the grounds that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. He was still operating until a few days ago. Were you supplying him the news service?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer on the grounds that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. What is wrong with saying, "Well, this horse won," or "That one won.” What is wrong about that that would incriminate

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer the question on the grounds that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you feel any self-incrimination when you take the fifth amendment on these simple questions?

Mr. PORETTO. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. You feel like you are self-incriminated when you take the fifth?

Mr. PORETTO. It might.

The CHAIRMAN. There may be a lot of people in this country that would agree with you, and that may be correct.

Proceed, Mr. Counsel.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Would you tell us how you get your racehorse information, the results of the races, from the tracks in New Orleans?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer on the grounds that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. You do get race information, the results of the races there, don't you, within minutes of the end of the race?

Mr. PORETTO. I decline to answer on the grounds that the answer may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Mr. Marcello, are you a partner of the Nola Printing Co.?

Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.

The CHAIRMAN. Is this the brother of Carlos Marcello?
Mr. ADLERMAN. Are you a brother to Carlos Marcello?
(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Nr. MARCELLO. Yes, I am.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know about his condition? Can you give us any information under oath about his physical condition?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

The CHAIRMAN. Understand, now, I want it under oath. If you can be helpful to us about his condition, I would like to have you testify right now.

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. MARCELLO. The answer is "No."
The CHAIRMAN. What did he say?
Mr. ADLERMAN. The answer is "No."

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you are not able to testify under oath as to his condition?

Mr. MARCELLO. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well. We will proceed. I thought maybe you had personal knowledge of his condition. I asked that to see.

Senator MUNDT. Is he your father or your brother? Are you related to him?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)

Mr. MARCELLO. I answered that.
The CHAIRMAN. I thought he said brother.
Mr. WASSERMAN. He said his brother.

Senator Munur. Then you can probably answer the question : Do you know of your own personal knowledge that he is in Mercy Hospital?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. MARCELLO. Yes.

Senator Mundt. With a broken rib or broken ribs; is that what it is?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.)
Mr. MARCELLO. I don't know what the condition is.
Senator Mundt. How long has he been in the hosiptal?
Mr. MARCELLO. Sir?
Senator MUNDT. About how long has he been in the hospital ?
Mr. MARCELLO. Since Sunday night.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Is he suffering from a condition called McClellanitis?

Mr. WASSERMAN. I would like to object to that question.
The CHAIRMAN. The question is withdrawn. Proceed.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Have you ever known your brother to suffer from a heart condition?

(The witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. MARCELLO. I am not the doctor, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The purpose of the question about your brother was to try to ascertain if he is in the hospital and if he is not able to attend these hearings, if you had that knowledge. I would be glad to have you testify about it. Since you don't have, we will have to find out from some other source.

Proceed with the other matters.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Are you a partner of Joseph Poretto, Anthony Carollo, and Ralph Emery, and formerly a partner of Joseph Pecoraro, who is now deceased

Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer that question on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Will you tell us how you get your race information or the results from the racetrack in New Orleans, Jefferson Downs, and the Fairground?

Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer that question on the ground it may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Will you tell us about this private telephone line that you have in Jefferson Parish?

Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer that question on the ground it may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Will you tell us how many customers you have for your wire service?

Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer that question on the ground it may tend to incriminate me.

Mr. ADLERMAN. Will you tell us how much you get from that wire service?

Mr. MARCELLO. I decline to answer that question on the ground it may

tend to incriminate me. Mr. ADLERMAN. Will you tell us how much income you receive or report on that wire service?

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